APFN TALKS TO THE ENEMY (Continued)
L: (still laughing) I think you do (still laughing) Let
me ask you something? Getting back to the...I
wanted to ask you about this...are...I know about
the anti-planning department efforts in Montana.
I'm going up to Montana next week to talk to
K: Um hmm.
L: I wanted to ask you, Ken, in your network do
you sense that these things are going on in other
places? Beyond Montana...
L: We know about Callistal, Hamilton, Boseman,
K: Big time...all over the country...
K: Everywhere. Property rights people
everywhere. There's a guy in Florida called O.C.
Mills...Um...He's probably one of the best property
right fighters that, you know, has the best
arguments against all this stuff. But they're
everywhere. They're across the country. You
know, the BLM and the whole property rights,
L: So this is a growing movement. But what's
interesting to me is that the...some of the people
who are pushing the anti-planning effort, at least in
Montana, are also telling people about New World
Order, take over of the United States...
K: That's 'cause it's true...
K: It's true!
L: Please...how is that true?
K: Well, what evidence do you want? Uh....you
know, there's Russian equipment all over this
country? There's foreign agents seen all over this
country? There's is a soph...very, very
sophisticated underground tunneling system all
over this country? Uh....
L: The managing editor of a little paper in
Eastern Arizona, the 'Arizona Courier', I think I
K: Umm hmmm
L: He claims to me that he seen, he went and saw a
detention camp in Wyoming.
K: That's right...not only that...
L: He went and looked at it, and I said "What did
it look like?" And he said there's a perimeter fence
and quonset huts in there.
K: Right. Yeah...we....yeah., we....I've got all kinds
of information on the detention and concentration
camps. We also have hard proof of government
funding for these secret detention camps. Uh...
L: Who are they....and those are for Americans.
L: They're for Americans? They're to put
Americans in...the detention camps. What are they
for, is what I'm asking?
K: Well, we'd like to know ourselves.
L: Okay. Who built them?
K: The government. Well, we've got proof of
funding to the Air Force. But I've got files and
files of information on these camps. Um...There's a
book out by a Canadian, Siege Monet that
identifies all the concentration camps in the
country and so on and so forth. I mean all this stuff
is readily available to people if they'll take the time
to research it, you know, the small patriot groups
across the country have taken the time, they've got
the information, they've got the documents, and
they will get in the media's face in a minute. You
know, the, the uh, you know, the groups in the
country have educated themselves that they have
more knowledge of what's goin' on and the
problems in the country than the congressmen, or
the senators or the media.
L: Does anybody know how many patriots there
K: If we did, we wouldn't tell you (ha ha ha).
L: I just wondered. I mean estimates of...
K: How about 250 million?
L: Well the militia is estima...militias are estimated
to have 10,000 members across the country.
K: Bullshit! How 'bout 10 million?
K: How 'bout 10 million?
L: Militia members?
L: That sounds higher...
K: You should...eh...
L: ...than anything I've heard.
K: You should get the Donahue show taped the
L: Let me write that down...Donahue, 27th?
K: Right. Let me give you the number for the
Militia of Montana.
L: Hold it, let me make a place on the computer.
K: Let me find the list.
K: Ummm....okay, 406-847-2246 (telephone beep)
L: What city is that?
K: Nexus, Montana, or something like that. Yeah.
Noxon, or something like that. Hold on just a
K: Ken Vardon.
CALLER: Ken, Ron Engleman.
K: Hey, Ron Engleman, I'm talking to the L.A.
Times in Denver.
R: Oh, are ya?
K: Want me to flash-hook you in?
K: This guy was the reporter in Waco.
R: Oh, really?
R: And who's he with?
K: He's with the L.A. Times.
R: And he...
K: I just chewed his ass out for 10 minutes.
R: Good, let me hear.
K: (laughing) I don't think I can flash-hook ya
because you're two different lines.
K: Yeah. But, uh, uh, geez, I'm gonna have him
call ya. (laughing)
R: Yeah, I need t...I need to hear this.
K: I'll give you a call back as soon as I get off this
R: Okay. 'Cause I...
K: 'Cause I've just...
R: I want this Sauder's phone number.
R: He's outta his fu~kin' mind.
R: This Sauder?
R: The guy with the tunnels?
R: He's gotta be outta his fu~kin' mind.
R: Well, where's the dirt?
K: Oh, they don't...it's nuclear powered. It melts it
R: Oh, shit, man. Okay, where's the glass?
K: Rand Corporation does it. It makes the walls.
K: We've got...I've got lottsa stuff. I'll call ya right
R: Okay, man.
K: Right, bye.
R: Talk ta ya, bye. (hangup)
K: I'm sorry, Louis...
L: No problem, Ken.
K: That was Ron Engleman, by the way, that was
the radio announcer in Dallas, that communicated
with the Davidians every day down there.
L: I listened to him myself when I was down there.
I heard him...
L: And he was communicating with them with the
radio an...with the dishes...
L: the radio dishes...
L: That was amazing. And he was the only person
talking to them in this way.
K: Right. Well, we were sendin' Morse Code in
there at night with infra red.
L: Honest to God?
L: Could they read it?
L: Oh, my God, I didn't know about that.
K: I did that the, you know like, when that first
night of the thing happened I talked to Tom down
there. I says, "What's this deal all about?" But this
Navy Seal got on the line and he went up on the hill
up there and we were shootin' Morse Code in there
and that's why they started all that lights and noise
L: Oh, my God. Did, did...
K: The Davidians were c...
L: ...the Davidians talk back to you?
L: Did the Davidians talk back to you?
K: Well, I'll sh...I sent the first fax down there, and
that's when they sent out...they put out the first
deal that says, you know, "God help us, send in the
L: Yes, of course, I remember that.
K: You know, and the media shoulda gone in there
and grabbed the FBI by the throat and said we're
gonna go in and talk to these people.
L: We did.
K: And they'll shoot us in the back.
L: And I said we'll get our asses arrested. In fact
K: So what!
L: We couldn't get close to it, Ken. They
were...they had helicopters flying around the
K: No, I do understand that, you know it's just a
L: In fact, they probably even had motion
detectors. God knows what they had.
K: I can't believe that you guys just don't hate this
FBI so bad (laughing) so bad you can't stand it.
L: Listen, man, we do...
K: But, I'll tell you what, there're a couple of them
that come clean, and, you know, we've got
some...we've got the truth.
L: Tell me about militias. Why are they so popular
and why shouldn't we be afraid of them?
K: Because...you know, the militias, that's a
symbolic thing. It's the basic thing that, you
know...the militia's aren't gonna go get guns on the
streets. You know, we're saying that we are going
to get in the face of the government, our local
people, our city pol....these people that are robbin',
and stealin', and cheatin' and takin' our freedom
away. And killin' our kids....before our eyes. You
know they bang down doors...I mean...it's
happenin' across this country every day...
everywhere. You know there's a siege goin' on
right now in the state Washington? Uh...
L: No, I didn't.
K: There is, you know, militias are...you know, in
Gainesville, Florida, they have gone and made
them take down the U.N. flag flyin' in front of
Gainesville, Florida? You know...
L: I didn't know that.
K: Well, that's because you're not part of my fax
L: What's the siege...tell me the siege in
K: It's a property rights alert thing. I can fax it to
you...It came in last night.
L: Did you hear...and you haven't heard about
K: I haven't heard that one, no.
L: Okay, I'm tryin' to get some clips on that...
K: But I'll tell you, there's another great story with
a guy by the name of Richard Snell, S-n-e-l-l. He's
in jail, gonna be executed this month in Arkansas.
It's a set-up.
L: How do you spell his last name?
K: And, uh...and this guy in Arkansas....he's got
the evidence on Clinton. You know, there's a
bunch of stuff down there?
K: Have you seen the "Clinton Chronicles"?
L: Uh uh.
K: Boy, I'll tell ya what, you watch them tapes,
you'll be a new person.
L: Ken, I don't even...honest to God...I'm learning
in talking to people like you and Harry Martin and
others. I'm learning about this stuff for the very
first time. There's a whole other world out there I
didn't even know existed. And that's why I'm
calling you and a lot of other people. I didn't
L: I didn't even know this shit was going on. But I
did notice in my travels around the west I'd keep
running in to people, average Americans, not
ranchers or anybody like that...
K: Umm hmm.
L: Talking about these things and saying the same
things I would hear in the other....you know, in the
far endof the...up by the Canadian border...and I'd
hear it in Southeastern Arizona...
K: Um hmmm.
L: ...and I'm goin' what is going on here?
K: Um hmmm uh huh. And there's...
L: ...What the hell?....there's something going on!
K: Yeah, there's a....at KHNC, there in Denver or
L: Uh huh.
K: There's a writer by the name of Scott Wheeler?
Okay? You should call that station and talk to
Scott. He's also been to Arkansas and done a lot of
investigations down there...
L: Uh huh. Okay.
K: I mean, you know, I've got hundreds and
hundreds of people on my list that, you know, are
my networkers, and stuff like that, but yeah, it's
L: Let me...
K: ...all over the country...
L: ...ask you this. This human rights guy I talked
to in Helena, Montana, yesterday. He was
complaining. I told you that he said that the far
right is kicking our ass on the information
K: Uh hmmm.
L: He also said that they can put out 9,000 faxes at
the drop of a hat. We put out one at a time.
K: Uh huh.
L: That's what we're up against, he said.
K: Uh huh.
L: Is that true, 9,000 faxes? I mean, if, if the word,
like a Brady Bill issue or something like
that...eh...if you had to put out....what kind of a
network is....how big is it?
K: Well, the first...my first rule is, I never tell
L: Okay, that's good enough. I just...
K: But let me tell you that the downline matrix...I
faxed you my welcome thing...my front page...is
you can see that I divide the network up into
advisors, associates and friends.
K: You know, my advisors are people....anybody
that I know, that's smarter than me, which is
L: Oh, no.
K: These are people that have been major
researchers in the Constitution, and, you know,
just tons and tons of 'em, okay? And anything
that's questionable goes out to the advisory thing
and, you know, it's kicked around and ate up
before we know what we're doin' so it's a check
and balance thing.
L: Uh huh.
K: And, uh, um...the Associates that I have. Those
are people that, you know, re-network to their
group, they, you know, have fax machines, they
make copies, they pass it out, they re-fax other
people and so on and so forth...and, um uh, I have
those located in every telephone exchange in the
country. Uh...so, how deep the matrix is? Nobody
knows, not even me. But, I know that the
information that passes through this hub, you
know, it goes to Internet, it goes around the world.
Okay? Plus, these groups then...you know, they're
notified of any updates on Waco, you know, the
Special Reports thing, the APFN hottest. You
should pull down the APFN hottest. Those two
there, they got some kick-ass stuff in there.
L: We could say that it goes around the
world...and if you had a fax that you sent
out...um...I mean through the downline matrix it
could find it's way all around the world.
K: Oh, yeah. I've got fax...
L: In thousands of places around the United States.
K: Hundreds of thousands.
L: Hundreds, okay.
K: And, you know, I've got faxes I've sent out three
months ago that are still goin' around the world. I
mean it goes on and on and....
L: Let me...
K: The hardest thing to get rid of is that 8-1/2 x 11
piece of paper. (both laughing)
L: Very good.
K: I mean, it's tough. (still laughing)
L: Let me ask you one last
question...um...Assuming that this guy, Ken Tool,
of the human rights network in Helena was
accurate in his complaints about they're gettin'
beat up by the far right at their own game, at grass
roots level info highway and all that shit...
K: That's because he can't come out with any
L: Well my, no but my question to you is going to
be, Ken, how did it come to this? The
environmental movement began at a grass roots
level, you know, 20 or 30 years ago....they invented
this game, but they've lost it. They're losing to the
other side. You guys. How did this happen? How is
it that you guys are taking over um...the networks,
the grassroots efforts, you're steamrolling them in
little...in rural Americal in particular the west
especially. Um...How did this happen? What's
goin' on? How did they lose the game they
practically invented? Do you understand what I'm
K: Uh huh, uh huh.
L: How did that happen? How did that evolve?
K: Well, you know, it's... you know, they turned up
the fire slow, they were doin'...you know...and all of
a sudden people started wakin' up. Um. You
know...I think Waco is a very, very big
...um...thing in the minds of people out there and
that...you know, there's just too much evidence out
there that's, you know, common to everybody that
there is something wrong. And, you know, when
they seen Waco, and they started studying the
something wrong, you know, pockets of people
f....you know, found the evidence that, you know,
that, uh...we're in big trouble in this country. And
then, you know, the press for the national identity
card, you know, uh, the one swing vote by Gore on
the budget on the Crime Control, on the Brady
Bill, you know...and you know, we know that 80%
of the people in this country objected to the Crime
Bill, for instance. And they did it anyhow. 80% of
the people in this country objected to GATT and
they did it anyhow. So all they've done is continue
to stir up the people out there, and uh...you know,
people are pissed off.
L: And this would explain why so many of the
people I'm meeting now these days around the
West, in particular...I keep saying that because this
is my territory...
L: But so many people that I run
into...um...they're getting their in....they're not
getting their information from the New York
Times, or the L.A. Times, or from t.v. anymore.
They're going to whole new networks...
L: Like your faxes. Like short-wave radio
L: Like radio talk shows...
L: Like newspapers like this guy in Arizona
printing John Birch Society columns now...
L: They're not even gettin' their news any more
L: Who do you get your news f...
K: You know, personally, you know, let me tell
where I come from...I'm 56 years old. You know, I
spent 14 years in the Navy. You know, I feel like,
you know, I'm fighting for the same thing
in...within my own country that I THOUGHT that
I was fighting for in Vietnam. But, you know, now
that I know that the Vietnam War was a set-up
CIA operation, I'm pissed off. And as far as I'm
concerned, I've been lied to about everything that I
ever thought that I knew about this country. And
the deeper that we've dug, the more, uh...revealing
evidence that we've found out about things...for
instance, the Second World War...we now know
absolutely, have positive proof, that Roosevelt
knew a week ahead of time about Pearl Harbor.
There's a guy, Hartford VanDyke, wrote the book
"Skeleton In Your Closet."
L: How long before?
K: A week.
L: He knew it was coming?
K: Um hmm.
L: Why would he...why would he...in heaven's
K: Because he was...
L: Why'd he not let America know that...
K: Well, when you pull down that "On The Road
L: Um hmmm
K: That article will explain a lot.
L: You know what, man, I'm gonna do that right
now (both laughing)...I can't wait.
K: (still laughing) You know, I don't mean to be
hollerin' at you, person...but you know, what?...
L: I know, I know.
K: ...we are pissed off out here, you know...
L: That's a...
L: ...I want to write a story...
K: You know, the thing is that, when you find out
this stuff, and you know the truth and you try to
write about it, you're gonna lose your job!
L: Let me tell you one thing. Harry Martin faxed
me today, this afternoon.
K: Yes, sir.
L: 'Cause he told me about the Hong Kong
L: ...in the what is?...
K: Crime Bill.
L: In the Crime Bill.
L: In the 1991 Crime Bill or the 93?
K: This one, yeah, the last one, yeah.
L: The last one, 1993 Crime Bill. He said that if I
didn't believe that the New World Order was
preparing, gearing up with the U.S. help to recruit
Hong Kong Police to help in the take-over of the
L: He could prove it to me in section 5108 of the
K: That's exactly right.
L: Well, I've got it. I'm looking at it right now,
even as we speak.
K: Uh huh.
L: I read it and I couldn't fu~kin' believe it
L: There it is...
K: Well, the whole thing...
L: No, but wait, but wait...
Last updated on 05/27/2002 06:23 PM