Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
                      REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
                 (Trial to Jury:  Volume 144)
         Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 8:45 a.m., on the 29th day of December,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,

 Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
  Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
    P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
         PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, and RANDAL SENGEL, Assistant U.S.
Attorney for the Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park
Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing
for the plaintiff.
to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200,
Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
NEUREITER, and JANE TIGAR, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln
Street, Suite 1308, Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for
Defendant Nichols.
                         *  *  *  *  *
    (In open court at 8:45 a.m.)
         THE COURT:  Be seated, please.
         Good morning.
         I have provided you with what I intend to give to the
jury as preliminary instructions, and your views are recorded
in your written submissions.  So this is what I intend to
proceed with.
         Do -- Mr. Tigar, does the defense intend an opening
statement, do you know yet?
         MR. TIGAR:  Yes, we know, your Honor; and -- and yes,
we will.  Your Honor, there are --
         THE COURT:  Immediately following the Government's?
         MR. TIGAR:  We're not going to reserve.
         THE COURT:  All right.
         MR. TIGAR:  Your Honor, there are two issues.  One is
this -- the videotape motion.
         THE COURT:  Yes.
         MR. TIGAR:  And a ruling on that would be helpful
before opening statement, obviously, because --
         THE COURT:  The Government -- the videotape that the
Government offered.
         MR. TIGAR:  Yes.
         THE COURT:  I reviewed that and I reviewed what was
just filed this morning by the Government about possible
redaction, and I'm going to exclude it in its entirety.
         MR. TIGAR:  Thank you, your Honor.
         And then, your Honor, I would like to know the rules
on exhibits in opening statement.  We had understood no
exhibits in opening statement and didn't bring any for that
purpose, but I see that at least somebody thinks that --
         THE COURT:  Well, does the Government intend some
opening statement -- exhibits in opening statement?
         MR. RYAN:  No, your Honor.
         MR. TIGAR:  Oh, well -- oh, then perhaps we could at
some point move the television out of the way or --
         THE COURT:  Well, is it in the way?
         MR. TIGAR:  No.  It's not in the way.
         THE COURT:  Okay.
         MR. TIGAR:  All right.
         THE COURT:  Then I think we're ready to proceed.
         MR. TIGAR:  We are.
         THE COURT:  Bring in the jury.
    (Jury in at 8:47 p.m.)
         THE COURT:  Members of the jury, good morning.
         Before we begin this penalty phase hearing, I want to
give you a general overview of the purpose of this proceeding
and what you may expect in the days ahead.
         The 12 members of the jury who deliberated in this
case found the defendant, Terry Lynn Nichols, guilty on the
first count of the indictment, conspiracy.  The federal statute
found to be violated, which is 18 United States Code Section
2332(a), provides that a person who conspires to use a weapon
of mass destruction against persons within the United States
and property of the United States may, if death results, be
punished by death, imprisonment for life, or for any term of
years.  The statute also provides that a sentence to death or
for life imprisonment without possibility of parole can only be
made by the jury.
         The jury in this case also decided that Terry Lynn
Nichols was not proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of the
crimes charged in Counts 2 and 3 in the indictment and as to
the eight counts of first-degree murder, found him guilty of
the lesser included offense of involuntary manslaughter.  The
sentencing on the guilty verdicts on those eight counts of
involuntary manslaughter is a matter to be determined by the
         Accordingly, what this hearing will be about is
whether for the crime of conspiracy to use a weapon of mass
destruction, Terry Lynn Nichols should be sentenced to death,
to life imprisonment without any possibility of release, or to
a lesser sentence to be determined by the Court.
         Even though the jury has found Mr. Nichols guilty of a
charge carrying the possibility of a death sentence, the law
requires that you approach this sentencing proceeding with open
minds and be able to give meaningful consideration to all of
the possible sentences which again are death, life in prison
without the possibility of ever being released, or any lesser
sentence provided by law.
         Before deciding on the appropriate punishment, you
must consider additional information about the crime and about
the uniqueness of the defendant as an individual human being.
         The information you may consider includes the evidence
presented at the trial.  Thus, you may consider the testimony,
the exhibits, and the stipulations offered by both sides during
the guilt phase.  And there will be no need for the parties to
reoffer that evidence that is already before you.
         The parties will also call witnesses and offer
exhibits at this second hearing in an effort to prove
aggravating and mitigating circumstances.  The Government first
will present information about aggravating circumstances which
the Government lawyers believe will tend to support imposition
of the death penalty.  The defendant then will present
information about mitigating circumstances, which the defense
lawyers believe tend to support imposition of a sentence other
than death.
         I will instruct you in more detail at the close of
this hearing regarding the questions you must answer based on
all of the information which you will then have before you.
Your initial responsibility will be to decide whether the
Government proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant
acted with the requisite intention to cause death; that is,

that Terry Nichols intentionally participated in an act,
contemplating that lives would be taken or intending that
lethal force would be used and that victims died as a -- as a
direct result, or that he intentionally and specifically
engaged in an act of violence knowing that the act created a
grave risk of death to the people in the Murrah Building, and
his participation constituted a reckless disregard for human
life and that victims died as a direct result of the act.
         If you make these findings, you must then consider
whether the Government has proved beyond a reasonable doubt
additional aggravating factors called "non-statutory
aggravating factors" as alleged.  In addition to a statutory
aggravating factor -- and these will be detailed for you in the
instructions that will be given at the end of the hearing, but
I'm just now giving you a general overview of the purpose of
the hearing, as I've said.
         And then, each juror, during deliberations here,
individually must consider whether the defendant has proved any
mitigating factors by a preponderance of the evidence.
Mitigating factors may include relatively minor participation
in the offense and information about personal traits,
character, and background of Mr. Nichols.
         The jury must ultimately determine whether the proven
aggravating factor or factors sufficiently outweigh any proven
mitigating factor or factors to justify a sentence of death.
The weighing of aggravating and mitigating factors is not a
mechanical process.  The jury should not simply count the
number of aggravating factors and mitigating factors and decide
which number is greater, but instead, must consider the weight
and value of each factor.  Whatever findings you make with
respect to aggravating and mitigating factors, the jury is
never required to impose a sentence of death.
         The jury's role in this proceeding is to be the
conscience of the community in making a moral judgment about
the worth of a specific life balanced against the societal
value of a deserved punishment for a particular crime.  The
jury's decision must be a reasoned one, free from the influence
of passion, prejudice, or any other arbitrary factor.
         As in the guilt phase of the trial, there will be four
steps in this sentencing hearing:
         First, counsel for the Government will make an opening
statement.  Counsel for the defendant will then make an opening
         Second, the parties will present information beginning
with the Government, and then the defendant, and finally, the
Government again in rebuttal if it wishes.
         The third stage or phase will be counsel for the
Government and the defendant will make closing arguments, just
as they did during the trial, beginning with the Government and
then defense counsel and then Government's counsel again in
         And fourth and finally, I will instruct you in detail
more fully on the controlling law.
         Now, once again, just as it was true during the trial
and throughout the trial, you must keep open minds and wait
until you've heard it all before making any individual
decisions and before discussing the question of punishment with
any other jurors.
         Of course, the jury will be limited to considering
what you see and hear in this courtroom.  But you won't have
now the same type of objections being made by lawyers with
respect to certain rules of evidence as, for example, hearsay.
Hearsay, within limits, can be considered in this information.
It -- and we refer to it now as "information" rather than
"evidence" because this is a different type of hearing.  We're
at a sentencing hearing, and the rules, so to speak, that I
will be applying are a bit different.  There will be, however,
other objections and rulings made with respect to what is
appropriate for you to hear and consider.
         Of course, the fundamental rule is that the jury must
fairly and impartially consider what they have heard, both at
trial and during this phase, and follow the law in making a
         Now, we're going forward, of course, operating on the
assumption, as we have throughout the trial and continue, that
whenever -- if it should happen that a juror does encounter
something outside of the evidence and now the information that
will be presented, you'll let me know about it; or if you have
had any contacts inadvertently or otherwise with anyone in any
manner affecting your role as a juror in this case, you'll let
me know about that.
         As I said, we'll continue during this phase, as we did
during the trial, of asking you to simply give me a note --
don't discuss it with other jurors -- but give me a note
whenever that should occur.  And of course, I remind you if it
has occurred, you've been away from the courtroom for a few
days -- and any time, you know, if it should occur, that you've
had contact with anybody or anybody's attempted to contact you
or you've inadvertently come across something relating to the
case or the subject matter of it, you let me know about it by
giving me a note, as I say, as to what occurred and without
discussing it with other jurors.
         So, members of the jury, we're prepared now to proceed
with this hearing; and as I indicated in this overview that
I've just given to you, the first phase or stage is opening
statements from both sides in the case.  And we'll begin with
the Government and Mr. Ryan.
                       OPENING STATEMENT
         MR. RYAN:  Thank you, your Honor.
         Good morning.  I know you each got a late start on the
holiday season, but I hope you had a joyous last three or four
         MR. TIGAR:  I object to the greeting, your Honor.
         MR. RYAN:  May --
         THE COURT:  Overruled.
         MR. RYAN:  May it please the Court.  Mr. Tigar,
Mr. Woods, my colleagues, members of the jury.
         The morning of Wednesday, April 19, 1995, in Oklahoma
City began just like every other morning.  The men, women, and
children of the city got up, showered, had breakfast, and said
goodbye to their families.  168 of those people said goodbye
for the last time.
         On April 19, Helena Garrett got up at 6:00 that
morning to get ready for work.  She had to be at the Journal
Record Building by 8:00.  She got her son, Tevin, up.  Tevin
was 16 months old.  And he came into the bathroom with her, as
he always did; and he pulled on the curlers that she had on the
dresser and they tumbled to the floor and they laughed.  And
she told him to go wake up his sister, Sharonda, who was five.
And he went in as he always did, grabbed a plastic vase, and
bopped her on the head.  She wasn't angry.  He did that every
         Helena came in, found Tevin, tossed him up in the air.
You know the sort of way that playful parents have with
children they love.  She was running late and told Sharonda
that she might have to take Sharonda to the Murrah day-care
center with Tevin.  Otherwise, she might be late for work.
Sharonda said no, she had kindergarten practice for their
graduation that morning.  She had to go to her kindergarten
         They left home about 7:15, and Helena dropped Sharonda
off at kindergarten and arrived in downtown Oklahoma City at
7:45.  Helena decided to park in the two-hour parking space at
the Murrah Building so that she wouldn't be late for work.  She
intended to come back about 9:00 to move her car to her regular
parking space and say hello to Tevin.  She walked Tevin to the
second floor of the Murrah Building, rang the doorbell.  Nobody
came.  Finally, Aaron Coverdale, a five-year-old there at the
day care, opened the door, and Helena saw why one of the
workers had not come to open the door.  Wanda Howell was over
with Baylee Almon on a changing table, changing Baylee's
diapers, and didn't want to leave Baylee for fear she might
fall from the table.
         Helena got ready to leave, and Tevin started to cry.
You know the way children cry when they get ready to leave
their -- their mothers.  But Aaron Coverdale and Elijah
Coverdale, two brothers, came over and they patted Tevin on the
back to comfort him, to console him.  Helena felt better, and
she left to go to work.
         She worked till a little before 9 at the Journal
Record building; and at that time, a thunderous explosion
ripped through Oklahoma City.  She screamed and she called for
her friend, Deborah.  Deborah came.  They clasped hands, and
they waited, waited for the deafening roar to stop.  Ceiling
tiles were falling, debris was falling.  They crawled and
climbed out of the building.  Deborah was worried about her
child, Kendra, who was at YMCA day care.  They ran to the YMCA
building, and they saw a man on the grass in front of the YMCA.
They told him it was all right.  The children were alive.  And
Helena turned to Deborah and said, "See Deborah, I told you
Kendra would be okay."
         And at that moment, Helena Garrett turned, and through
the billowing smoke of the Murrah Building, she saw that gaping
hole and the whole scene that each of you have seen.  And
you've heard the rest.  You've heard how she ran to the
building, she tried to get up into the building, she stopped
the rescue workers who were carrying babies from the building
and she told them to sweep the sidewalk clean of glass because
she didn't want the dead babies to be laid down on broken
         The worst fear of any mother became Helena Garrett's
reality:  Her baby was dead.
         This is one story of 168 stories.

         I'm the United States Attorney in Oklahoma City where
this crime occurred.  Together with my fellow prosecutors, it
is my privilege to talk to you today, my duty to prepare you to
receive the information that you're about to receive over the
next few days, information that will be difficult for us to
present, information that will be painful for you to hear.  But
it is our duty to ensure that you're fully informed with
respect to the death, the devastation, the destruction that
occurred in Oklahoma City following this conspiracy.
         And it is your duty to be fully informed before you
make a sentencing decision.
         No decision could be more important than the one we
ask you to make, and we would not ask you to do that without
all of the facts.
         At the beginning of this trial, you each took an oath
to begin each phase of this trial with an open mind.  You've
done that with respect to the guilt phase.  You've listened to
that evidence.  You've rendered your verdict.
         And by your verdict, you found beyond a reasonable
doubt that this defendant, Terry Nichols, one, knowingly and
deliberately conspired to use a weapon of mass destruction
against the Alfred P. Murrah Building and the persons inside.
         Two, you found that the death of persons was a
foreseeable result of this conspiracy.
         And three, you found that this crime resulted in
         Each of you, no doubt, felt somewhat differently about
the evidence.  Some of you may have felt stronger than others
with respect to the proof the Government presented in this
case.  But one thing is clear, each of you agreed, all 12, that
Terry Nichols conspired to commit this crime, this act of
         Now we ask you to once again approach this sentencing
phase with an open mind, to not make any decisions about what
the punishment should be until you've heard all the facts.
That was the pledge you made to Judge Matsch and to the lawyers
when you were selected as jurors in this case.  You said you
would be open in the event a defendant was convicted of a
capital crime to both life or death and that you would await
making that decision till all the evidence was in.
         At the outset, you should understand one important
point:  We present this evidence to you not to evoke your
sympathy.  These victims in Oklahoma City have had all the
sympathy they can stand for the last two-and-a-half years.  We
present this evidence so that you will be informed, so you will
have the facts necessary to make an appropriate sentencing
         On April 19, 1995, this nation stood in shock and
disbelief at what had occurred.  We had heard of terrorism.  It
had happened elsewhere in the world.  But who could plan an
attack on secretaries, on engineers, on bank teller -- credit
union tellers and yes, even babies.  We know now, you've
spoken.  Terry Nichols and Tim McVeigh could plan such an
attack.  And on April 19th, and the five-and-a-half weeks that
followed, these facts emerged from Oklahoma City:  168 people
died.  19 of those were children.  15 were in the day-care
center, and four were visitors of the Murrah Building.  163 of
those 168 were people who were inside the Murrah building at
the time of the explosion.  Two died in the Water Resources
Building, Trudy Rigney and Bob Chipman.  One died in the
Athenian Building almost directly across from the Murrah
Building, Anita Hightower.  One lady, Kathy Ridley, died as she
was walking across the parking lot in front of the Murrah
Building.  And one nurse died, Rebecca Anderson, who was trying
to assist in the recovery of bodies.
         351 people were treated in area hospitals.  158 people
were treated by private physicians, and thousands of people
sought and received emotional counseling as a result of this
tragedy.  And the surgeries and the therapy and the treatment
goes on as I speak to you this morning.
         This act of terrorism killed a cross section of
American people.  It made no distinctions for race, for sex, or
for age.  125 Caucasians died.  34 African-Americans died.
Five Hispanic-Americans died.  Two Asian-Americans died.  One
Pacific Islander died.  One Native American died.  94 women
died.  64 men died, men or boys.  And the ages ranged from four
months to 73 years.  99 of those who died were federal workers.
69 were not.
         In this case, in this sentencing phase, we'll present
no post-mortem photographs, no autopsy photographs, no
photographs of dead bodies on slabs at medical examiners'
offices.  We want you to make this sentencing decision based on
the cold, hard facts of what happened, on the aggravating
factors that we will present to you and the crime that was
         There are special circumstances in cases in which the
death penalty may be sought.  His Honor talked to you about
that this morning.  At the outset, there is a threshold
question you must answer as to the defendant's intent.  The
Court has spoken to you about that this morning.  The first
requirement is that the United States prove beyond a reasonable
doubt that Terry Nichols entered into this conspiracy to bomb
the Murrah Building, the people inside it, with the kind of
intent that permits the death penalty to be imposed under our
system of justice in the United States.
         By your verdict, you have found he knowingly and
deliberately participated in this conspiracy to use a weapon of
mass destruction against the Murrah Building and the people
inside.  You have found that death was foreseeable, and you
found that death resulted.
         The primary focus of this hearing will be on the
aggravating factors and the mitigating factors that his Honor
spoke to you about just moments ago.
         The Court and the law will provide you with a
framework, a structure, a format of sorts to help guide you and
assist you in reaching a sentencing verdict, and these are
these matters and factors in aggravation and mitigation.  You
will not be left alone in the process.  Indeed, the Court will
provide you with detailed questions that you must answer at the
conclusion of this hearing that you, as a body of 12, must
resolve.  The Court will provide you instructions with respect
to the burdens of proof that apply.
         You're not alone.
         However, the law does not define to you what weight
you should give any particular factor.  You may find after you
listen to the evidence that some factors deserve little, if
any, weight; other factors deserve a great deal of weight, and
yet some, tons of weight.  That decision is yours.  In the end,
you'll be asked to balance these aggravating factors and
mitigating factors and return a sentencing verdict as the moral
conscience of the community.
         American citizens like you should make this decision,
for only you can be the moral conscience of a community.
         I'm going to spend the remainder of my time with you
this morning talking about seven aggravating factors that the
United States will urge require a sentence of death.
         Many months before this trial began, the United States
provided a list of these factors to defense counsel, factors
the United States would rely upon in the event that you, the
jury, returned a verdict of guilty as to one or more death
penalty counts.
         The first factor is that this conspiracy, this act of
terrorism, involved substantial planning and premeditation.
         The second factor is that the deaths or injuries to
the people in the Murrah Building occurred as the result of the
interstate transportation of explosives in interstate commerce
and that that was part of the conspiracy.
         The third factor is that the defendant committed the
offenses against one or more public servants who were law
enforcement officers because of their status as law enforcement
         The fourth aggravating factor is that the defendant,
in conspiring to bomb the Murrah Building, used a weapon of
mass destruction, creating a grave risk of death to others, to
people in addition to the 168 people who died.
         The fifth aggravating factor is that this conspiracy
caused serious physical and permanent emotional and physical
injuries, including maiming, disfigurement, and permanent
disability to a number of people.
         The sixth factor is that this conspiracy resulted in
the deaths of 168 people.
         The seventh factor is what we call "victim impact
evidence."  This is evidence concerning the effect of this
crime upon the many families of the 168 people who died.
         We will present this testimony through approximately
60 witnesses and five videotapes.  This will take about three
         For the past seven weeks, you've heard quite a bit of
evidence already in this case.  Some of it relates to these
aggravating factors.  But we will not attempt to reprove that
evidence.  We know you recall it.  And you heard his Honor say
this morning that you could consider the evidence you've
already heard as evidence establishing these factors.
         I will start with the first factor of substantial
planning and premeditation.  Over the past seven weeks, you
heard a great deal about planning and premeditation.  You've
heard it in bits and pieces.  But taken together, it tells you
something of the fabric of the person who planned this crime.
Frequently, crimes are committed with little or no thought,
seconds of premeditation, sometimes even in the heat of
passion.  Not this crime.  This crime was the result of months
of preparation and thought.
         Many aliases, purchases of ammonium nitrate, renting
storage sheds in aliases, making phone calls to rent sheds,
to -- to purchase nitromethane, to buy ammonium nitrate, to
obtain barrels.  You've heard it all.  For days and days and
weeks and weeks and months and months, this defendant went down
that road of destruction and chose deliberately to conspire to
blow up this building.  And you've even heard the date that was
selected, April 19, "Liberty Day," the two-year anniversary of
the tragedy at Waco.
         Terry Nichols made a conscience decision each step of
the way, conversation after conversation, purchase after
purchase, telephone call after telephone call, even down to the
lies he told his wife, Marife, on Easter Sunday, three days
before the bombing.
         This aggravation factor of substantial planning and
premeditation has already been proven.
         MR. TIGAR:  Your Honor, I object -- I object to that,
and I ask to approach the bench, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  All right.  You may approach the bench.
    (At the bench:)
    (Bench Conference 144B1 is not herein transcribed by court
order.  It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)

    (In open court:)
         THE COURT:  Members of the jury, let me just say
here -- and of course, again, there are going to be disputes
and disagreements among counsel about what is appropriate in
this proceeding; and in part, these disagreements may relate to
the law which I will instruct you on in considerable detail at
the end of the hearing, as I've already said.
         In part, also, interpretations about what the jury's
verdict means.  I will instruct you with respect to that, as
well, but the 12 persons who decided the verdicts in this case
know well what it is that the jury relied upon in the evidence.
And when Mr. Ryan is speaking of premeditation here with
respect to an aggravating factor relating to the conspiracy
count, that must be distinguished from the Court's instructions
about premeditation with respect to first-degree murder which
was involved as an element of the first-degree murder charge in
the eight counts on which this jury found the defendant not
guilty of premeditated first-degree murder.
         So, you know, during the course of this hearing, there
are going to be things said and done where some people may have
an interpretation about what your thinking has been.  We can't
ask you and it would be wholly inappropriate for us to ask you
to explain your verdict.  Your verdict is your verdict; and as
I said when I received your verdict, only you, the 12 jurors
who deliberated in this case, know the details of your
collective decision.
         So when lawyers in the case refer to what you have
found or not found, you are the ones who will tell us in final
decision with respect to the questions to be asked of you what
you've found, both with respect to your previous verdict and
now whatever you may find with respect to the questions that
will be put to you at the close of this hearing.
         So I just want to emphasize that none of us here --
Mr. Ryan, or the other prosecutors or defense counsel or me --
can interpret your verdict in any way different from your
verdict.  That's your folks' decision.  So when references may
be made in the course of argument or opening statement about
what you did or didn't find, please understand that these are
not efforts to try to talk you into or out of anything that
you've already found.  Your findings are yours, and we don't
ask you to explain them.
         MR. RYAN:  Thank you, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Please proceed.
         MR. RYAN:  At the conclusion of this phase of the
trial, the United States will ask that you find that this
conspiracy was a result of substantial planning and
         The second aggravating factor that I want to talk to
you about this morning is that the defendant, in conspiring
with Tim McVeigh, also committed the crime under 18 United
States Code Section 844(d) of transporting explosives in
interstate commerce, and these explosives were later used to
make a truck bomb.  Again, you heard the evidence.  You heard
the evidence of the burglary at the Martin Marietta quarry.
You heard about transporting those explosives to Kingman,
Arizona, where they were stored in a storage shed.  You heard
about the purchase of nitromethane in Texas.  You heard about
purchases of ammonium nitrate in Kansas.  And you know that
those components were used to create a truck bomb.  You know
what "interstate commerce" means.  His Honor will instruct you
on it.  It simply means crossing state lines with these
explosives.  We will ask that this second aggravating factor be
found by you beyond a reasonable doubt.
         The third factor involves the defendant's conspiring
against law enforcement officers because of their status as
public servants.  You know that Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols
were upset about what federal law enforcement officers or what
they perceived federal law enforcement officers had done at
Waco, Texas.  The focus of their conspiracy to bomb the Murrah
Building was to avenge the deaths of those at Waco through a
terrorist attack on federal law enforcement.
         And as you know, there were eight federal law
enforcement officers in the Murrah Building, and I know you
recall their names because you found that the defendant had
committed manslaughter with respect to each of those officers:
Cindy Campbell-Brown, Mickey Maroney, Don Leonard, Alan
Whicher, Kenny McCullough, Paul Broxterman, Claude Medearis,
Paul Ice.
         Cindy Campbell-Brown was a new Secret Service agent.
She was 27 years old.  40 days before the Murrah Building, she
was married to Ron Brown, a Secret Service agent she had met in
her training class.  He was stationed in Arizona.  Ten days
before April 19, she had last seen her dad, Gary Campbell.  He
had come up from Sherman, Texas, to see her office.  She was
proud of her office.  She was proud of what she was doing, and
she was proud of the people she worked with and she expressed
that to her father.
         When the bomb went off and they saw the images in
Arizona and Texas, what had happened in Oklahoma City, they
began to wait.  Waiting was one thing these families of these
law enforcement officers all had in common.  They had waited
all -- all of them had waited many, many nights because their
loved ones were out on dangerous assignments.  Some -- one of
them had been shot.  All of them had been scared.  And all of
their families had waited.  But Ron Brown and Gary Campbell did
not have long to wait on Cindy Campbell-Brown, because she was
on the ninth floor of the building and she was the very first
person to be identified by the state medical examiner's office
of the 168 victims.
         Rescuers and firemen will come into this court and
they will tell you about the recovery of the bodies, about the
conditions they worked in, and they will tell you what happened
when that building exploded and floors pancaked one on top of
the other, crushing these bodies.  And you will come to realize
why it is that people on the ninth floor were among the first
to be identified, because only the roof of the building fell on
         And that is true for four other law enforcement
officers, as well.  In total, five of these officers were on
the ninth floor.
         Mickey Maroney and his wife, Robbie, lived in Oklahoma
City.  He had gone to school in Arkansas.  His wife, Robbie,
worked at a medical clinic, McBride Medical Clinic, about a
mile from the Murrah Building.  When she heard the explosion,
she immediately ran towards the smoke, and in arriving at the
building, she looked up and she saw the very same picture that
you've seen, that north face of the Murrah Building, and she
knew there was very little chance her husband would return home
alive, and she was right.
         Two days later, Secret Service officers came to her
home and notified her that Mickey was dead.  He was the 14th
victim of the 168 to be removed from the building and
identified by the medical examiner's office.
         The third Secret Service agent that died was Alan
Whicher.  Alan and his wife, Pam, had recently moved to
Oklahoma City.  Alan had a distinguished career with Secret
Service.  He had protected the president, Margaret Thatcher,
Prince Charles, even the Pope.
         When he went through his Secret Service training class
many years before the Oklahoma City bombing, he met a friend,
Steve Colo, and they entered into a pact because they knew they
were entering upon a dangerous line of work.  And their pact
was that if anything should happen to one of them, the other
would be there for the family.
         And at 11:00 on the night of April 19, Steve Colo
showed up on the doorstep of Pam Whicher, and he waited with
her and her family as they sought in vain to get information
about Alan's whereabouts and what had happened to him.
         Alan was recovered and identified on April 21st.  He
was the 26th victim of the 168 to be identified.
         The fourth Secret Service agent was Don Leonard.  Don
Leonard had had a long career with Secret Service.  He had been
on protection details for seven different presidents of this
nation.  His wife, Diane, will come before you and she'll
testify in this case and she will tell you about the many, many
times that she worried about Don, the assignments that he had
overseas sometimes he couldn't talk to her about.  She will
tell you the one time she never worried about him was when he
went to work at the Murrah Building.
         She talked to him on the night of April 18th.  She was
in Tulsa.  She worked as a sales representative.  She called
him that night as she always did when she was out of town.
         The next day, on the 19th, she was working.  She did
not find out about what had happened till 2:00 that afternoon,
and the people she was with knew but didn't want to tell her.
But they did.
         She got in her car and sped to Oklahoma City.  She
turned on the radio, desperately seeking information.  What she
heard dealt with the fact that they needed body bags in
Oklahoma City.
         When she got to Oklahoma City, she immediately went
downtown, trying to find her husband.  She went to area
hospitals.  She scanned the list they had posted of the
injured, hoping to find Don's name.  It wasn't there.
         Finally, two days later, the "suits," as her kids
called it -- the "suits" walked down her driveway and she knew
what news they had brought.  Don Leonard was dead.
         He was the 30th victim out of 168 to be identified.
         The fifth officer was Kenny McCullough, Drug
Enforcement agent.  He went to Texas A & M.  He and his wife
and their children lived in Oklahoma City.  He had previously
worked with the Defense Investigative Service, then gone to
work for Drug Enforcement Administration.  His wife was
teaching school at the time of the bombing.  She immediately
turned on a television, saw what had happened, realized that
her husband probably would not return.
         And sure enough, three days later, DEA agents brought
his badge and wallet to her.  He was the 32d victim to be
identified of 168.
         The sixth officer was Paul Ice, an officer with U.S.
Customs.  Paul grew up in a town outside Oklahoma City called
Midwest City.  He was the middle son of Jack and Neva Ice.
After high school, he went into the Marine Corps where he
served on active duty and reserves for 20 years, retiring as a
lieutenant colonel.  He went to work for the United States
Customs.  He too had been on many dangerous assignments.  When
his family found out what happened on April 19th, they came to
the city, they talked to Priscilla Salyer (sic).  Priscilla
Salyer was his secretary.  And she told them that on the
morning of the 19th at 9:00, she was face to face with Paul
Ice.  And when the explosion erupted, he disappeared and she

fell several floors into the rubble where she was buried for
hours.  She told the family after rescuers had dug her out that
she never saw Paul again, never heard his voice, never felt his
         Paul Ice's family waited eight days for news of Paul
Ice.  He was the 94th victim of 164 -- 68 to be identified
because he was on the fifth floor.
         Claude Medearis was the seventh officer who died.
Claude graduated from high school down in Colorado Springs.
Like Paul, he went into the military.  They worked together in
Customs, Paul Ice and Claude Medearis.  He worked border patrol
for U.S. Customs in Texas.  Until the end of Desert Storm when
his oldest daughter Kathy's husband died on the last day of
Desert Storm, he decided and demanded that he be brought to
Oklahoma City with U.S. Customs so he could be close to his
daughter to help her through this difficult time.
         On the morning of the 19th, Claude Medearis told his
family that he had to go to the Murrah Building but only
briefly because he had an appointment over in El Reno,
Oklahoma, in a federal prison that morning.  So when his family
heard about the news of the Murrah Building at 9:00, they hoped
and they prayed that he had left the building and gotten out on
his way to his appointment.  He hadn't.
         They waited.  They waited for ten days for news.
Claude Medearis was the 109th victim out of 168 victims to be
         The eighth victim was Paul Broxterman with the
Inspector General's office with Housing and Urban Development.
To search back in time to the first day of this trial when you
heard the testimony of Susan Hunt, Susan was that very tall
lady who was the office manager for HUD.  And she told you that
their offices in the Murrah Building were on the 7th and 8th
floors with one exception.  Paul Broxterman.  Because of his
job with Inspector General, he was separated from the rest of
the offices.  He was on the 4th floor.  He had been assigned to
Oklahoma City for three days.  On the morning of the 19th,
Susan told you that he was there in the supply room, getting
supplies needed for a trial that he had to testify in.
         Paul Broxterman's family waited 13 days.  Paul
Broxterman was the 134th victim of 168 to be identified by the
medical examiner's office.
         These eight officers are the reason Terry Nichols and
Tim McVeigh selected the Murrah Building as the object of their
conspiracy, and this object of the conspiracy was met.  Those
eight people died.  160 other people also died, but the object
of the conspiracy was met, and we will ask that you find that
aggravating factor has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
         The fourth aggravating factor is that the defendant,
in conspiring with Timothy McVeigh to use a weapon of mass
destruction against the Murrah Building and the people inside,
created a grave risk of death to others besides these 168 we've
been talking about.
         Just as Terry Nichols planned, he was safely at home
on the morning of April 19th as Tim McVeigh drove his truck
east on 5th Street towards the Murrah Building.  Another
witness you may remember from the very beginning of the trial
was Richard Nichols.  Richard Nichols was the maintenance man
at the Regency Tower apartments about a block and a half west
of the Murrah Building on 5th Street.  You may recall that his
wife drove her small Ford, red Ford Fiesta to the Murrah
Building with her nephew Chad.  Chad had a doctor's appointment
that morning.  And you may recall seeing on the video footage
Mrs. Richard Nichols walking into the building and Mr. Richard
Nichols coming out of the building.
         And as they reached the car, fortunately, their nephew
Chad was moving from the front seat to the back seat.  As
Richard Nichols looked up, and saw this whirling axle coming
towards him and his family, it hit dead center on the red Ford
         All three of those people were under a grave risk of
death.  Fortunately, they survived.
         You'll recall as the Ryder truck passed by the Water
Resources Building, Terry Nichols was home safe in Herington.
But you recall who was inside that building.  Lou Klaver came
and testified before you.  She was the lawyer who was taping
the meeting of the water rights hearing on the north side of
the building.  You heard the tape.  You heard the frightened
voices.  People clamoring to get out of the building.  All 65
people in that building were exposed to the grave risk of
death.  Two died.  Bob Chipman and Trudy Rigney.
         As the truck passed the Athenian Building, Terry
Nichols was home in Herington, safe, just the way he planned
it.  But Anita Hightower was in that building, along with four
others.  Anita Hightower is the lady you recall who Helena
Garrett told you about when she testified, her friend, the one
she had run into in front of the Murrah Building and they
talked to Tevin Garrett through the glass windows.  Anita
Hightower was crushed to death when the Athenian Building
collapsed.  All five people in that building were exposed to
the grave risk of death by this conspiracy.  One died.  Four
         When that truck, this weapon of mass destruction, was
pulled in front of the Murrah Building, dozens of people were
waiting for services of Social Security at 9:00.  You remember
the list Eric McKisick brought you, showed the list of some of
the people who had appointments that morning.  Five of them
were older, married couples, waiting for their days of
retirement.  All five of those couples died.  The Hurlburts,
Jean and Charles; Fritzlers, Mary Anne and Don, Donald; the
Treanors, Gean and LaRue -- Luther, I mean.  Excuse me.  The
Lusters, Donna and Robert; and the Battles, Peola and Calvin.
They all died.  All of these visitors who were on the other
side of that glass wall were exposed to the grave risk of
death.  Most of them died, but not all.
         As Mr. McVeigh got out of his truck, the children were
playing in the day care; and you know from the testimony of
Helena Garrett, their pictures were on the wall, the glass
wall.  The cribs were against the wall.  It could be seen from
the street, the very same street that Terry Nichols had driven
down three days before.  At 9:02, Royia Sims, a lady who worked
in the Journal Record Building, was in her office.  Her office
faced the window of the Murrah Building, plate glass window.
And as the bomb exploded, that plate glass window rocketed to
her face in shards and broken pieces.  You will witness the
results.  There were 303 people in that Journal Record
Building.  All were exposed to the grave risk of death.
         Kathy Ridley was walking across the parking lot, that
parking lot that the defense spent so much time on with the
victims.  Terry Nichols did not know that Kathy Ridley would be
walking across that parking lot at 9:02 Wednesday morning, but
he knew that with 4,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate, a bomb of
that size, anyone who was outside that truck bomb would be
burned to death by the blast and the fires that crossed the
street, and Kathy Ridley was.  Everyone on the streets in
downtown Oklahoma City, in the vicinity of the Murrah Building
were exposed to the grave risk of death.
         Directly ahead of the Ryder truck was the YMCA
building.  It's a building where people were working,
exercising, where children were attending day care.  You may
remember at the beginning of this trial, a video you saw of
children.  Well, those were the children of the YMCA,
frightened, blood-stained.  They all lived.  But all were
exposed to the grave risk of death while Terry Nichols was safe
at home in Herington.
         Marine Captain Randy Norfleet will testify in this
case.  He will tell you that he was assigned to the Stillwater,
Oklahoma, office.  He had been to a prayer breakfast that
morning.  And he went to the Murrah Building just moments
before 9:00, went up to the 6th floor, and there, he saw
Sergeant Ben Davis.  Sergeant Davis was awaiting on news as to
whether he had been accepted to officer's candidate school.  He
was excited.  Captain Norfleet walked away.  The bomb erupted.

Sergeant Davis died.  Randy Norfleet lived.  Blinded in one
eye, but he lived.
         Matt Cooper, you remember him, the Marine captain who
testified in this case.  He told you his office faced the north
wall of the Murrah Building.  That moments before 9:00, he had
gotten up to go talk to another Marine in the south part of the
         Captain Randolph Guzman went and sat in his chair.
When the bomb exploded, Captain Cooper lived.  Captain Guzman
died.  Death was random at Oklahoma City on April 19th.
         The indictment and the charges in this case listed
only 160 people as dying in the Murrah Building.  You may be
wondering about what I've said.  Why did I say 163?  At the
time this indictment was brought in August of 1995, it was
thought that 160 people died in the Murrah Building.  But
subsequent to that, three people who were thought to have died
elsewhere, in fact, died inside the Murrah Building:  Raymond
Johnson, Kathy Cregan and Charlotte Thomas.  There were,
however, 361 people in the Murrah Building, as I may have
mentioned earlier.  163 died, 198 lived.  Sue Mallonee, the
state epidemiologist, a person who studies injuries, injury
prevention, conducted a study following this bombing.  She
determined these numbers and she will testify to you in this
proceeding by way of videotape.
         And at the conclusion of this evidence, we will ask
you to find beyond a reasonable doubt that this conspiracy to
use a weapon of mass destruction against the Murrah Building
and the people inside created a grave risk of death to many,
many people; not just 168 who died.
         The fifth aggravating factor is that serious and
permanent injuries occurred to numerous people in Oklahoma
City.  Of course, we will not bring you all of the people who
were severely injured.  We will only bring a few because we
want you to have some understanding, some glimpse of what
happened to so many, many people.
         One of the victims who was so seriously injured was
Daina Bradley.  Daina Bradley was a young woman who went to
Social Security that morning with her mother, with her sister,
and with her two children.  When the firemen and the rescuers
went into the building to find those that had been trapped,
they found Daina Bradley in a small cave inside the bowels of
the building.
         Americans have always been heroic.  But never more so
or rarely more so than on April 19th.  The rescuers called
Dr. Andy Sullivan, an orthopedic surgeon in Oklahoma City, to
come down to the building.  A building that was still smoking,
smoldering and shuddering.
         And Andy Sullivan will testify in this case and he
will tell you what it was like to go into that building.  He
was scared.  They were all scared.  He will tell you about
crawling into a very small space and lying on top of Daina
Bradley because the rescuers couldn't get her out.  Thousands
and thousands of pounds of concrete had fallen on her leg.  He
will tell you about laying on top of her because there was not
room to do anything else, about sawing her leg off in that
building, and about removing her that day.
         Her mother died.  Both her children died.  And her
sister was very seriously injured, as, of course, was Daina.
         Daina is but one story.  There were many men and women
panicked and trapped in that building.  Some died of
suffocation and injuries before the rescuers could get to them,
all a result of this conspiracy.
         21 children left the safety of their parents' arms
that morning to go to day-care.  15 died.  Six lived.  Chris
Nguyen lived.  Joe Webber lived.  Rebecca Denney lived.
Brandon Denney lived.  Nekia McCloud lived.  P. J. Allen lived.
But that's it.  We will not bring these children in here.
Again, we don't want sympathy.
         We'll bring a videotape of these children so that you
can see the serious and permanent, long-lasting injuries these
children suffered:  Brandon Denney, a child who had a ceiling
tile pierce his skull and embed deep into his brain; seven
brain surgeries.  And you will -- you will see him with his
therapist, Michelle Kirby, as he tries to do things with his
dominant arm that he can't use very well.  You'll see how he
         You will see a video of P. J. Allen, a young boy who
was severely burned, who underwent excruciating skin-grafting.
You will see as he attempts to breathe and he rasps through his
         You will see Nekia McCloud and you will hear the
testimony of her physician, Dr. Morris Gessouroun, as he tells
you about the profound and permanent and severe brain damage.
And you will see her -- you'll see her frustration as she tries
to follow the simplest of commands.
         When you've heard this evidence, you'll be satisfied
that the people of Oklahoma City suffered numerous physical,
serious injuries.
         The sixth factor is that multiple deaths occurred as a
result of the defendants' conspiracy.  The death of 168 people.
It would be tempting for you to think of this as one mass
murder.  Don't.
         These are 168 people that are all unique.  They are
all different.  They all had families and friends.  They are as
different as everyone in this courtroom.  They went to church.
They coached Little League.  They designed highways.  They
watched their children dance.  They helped to prevent disease.
They played with their kids on the bed.  They nursed the sick.
They enforced our nation's laws.  They had unique smiles and
ways of greeting people at the credit union.  They knew how to
run machines and keep buildings going.  They knew how to nurse
the sick.  They helped people obtain Social Security.  They
protected presidents.  They protected popes.  And they all
brought enjoyment and love to others.
         The evidence will be that these 168 people all died a
violent and frightening death.  They were mangled.  They were
crushed.  And they were degraded in their death.  Many were
amputated.  Some decapitated.  When we've concluded, you will
be satisfied that this aggravating factor has been met.
         The seventh aggravating and last factor is that the
crime, this crime of conspiracy, had a severe impact on many,
many people.  You will only have a glimpse of the devastation,
of the broken dreams, the lost lives.  We're not going to bring
all the relatives into this courtroom.  My gosh, they wouldn't
fit in this whole courthouse.  We'll bring you some mothers and
some fathers, some brothers and sisters and sons and daughters.
We'll ask as they testify, please recall and remember while
you're listening to this mother, there are many, many other
mothers who won't be here.
         Diane Leonard will testify.  She will tell you about
her husband Donald.  She'll tell you about his career.  She'll
tell you about her sons.  She'll tell you about the impact of
his death on her and her children.  The defendant's conspiracy
resulted in the death of many husbands.
         Greg Sohn will tell you about his wife, Vicky, and the
five kids that lived in their house, kids from each of their
former marriages.  He will tell you about the impact of his
wife's death on him.  The defendant's conspiracy resulted in
the deaths of many wives.
         Carl Brown will testify to you about his son -- his
grandson, Anthony, one of the children at the day-care center.
He will tell you about Anthony, things he enjoyed to do, what
he was like, the impact of Anthony's death on him.  This
conspiracy resulted in the death of many grandchildren.
         Glenn Westberry will testify.  He will testify about
the death of his father, Robert.  Robert had many
grandchildren, among them greats.  And he will testify to you
about the fact and the impact of the death of a grandfather on
grandchildren.  This conspiracy resulted in the deaths of many
         Lynn Gist's sister, Karen, died.  Lynn will come
before you.  She will testify there were five girls in the
family, and Lynn will testify from her perspective about what
it's like to lose a sister.  This conspiracy resulted in the
death of many sisters.
         Kay Ice will testify about the death of her brother,
Paul, and the impact of that death upon her, how close they
were.  This conspiracy resulted in the deaths of many brothers.
         Mike Lenz's wife, Carrie died.  Carrie worked for the
DEA.  On the morning of the 19th, she was up there on the 9th
floor.  She was showing the ultrasound film of her pregnancy to
her co-workers.  Mike will tell you about the impact of that,
loss of his wife and the loss of an unborn child.  This
conspiracy resulted in the death of three unborn children.
         Todd McCarthy's father, Jim, died.  Jim worked for the
Housing and Urban Development.  On Easter Sunday, Todd had come
from Kansas City to see his dad.  His dad was very proud.  He
had recently been promoted.  His dad took Todd down to the
Murrah Building that Easter Sunday to show him his office.  And
Todd was very proud for his father.  It was the same Sunday
Terry Nichols was in Oklahoma City with Tim McVeigh.  Todd will
tell you about the impact of losing a father.  This conspiracy
resulted in the deaths of many fathers.
         Clint Seidl's mother died, Kathy.  She worked at
Secret Service.  Everyone at Secret Service died.  Clint's dad
Glenn, will be here to testify.  He will talk to you about the
death of Kathy from the standpoint of his son, Clint.  This
conspiracy resulted in the deaths of many mothers.
         Kathleen Treanor's daughter, Ashley, died.  Ashley had
gone down with her grandparents, the Treanors, to the building
that morning.  Kathleen will tell you what it's like to lose a
daughter and the impact of that upon her.  This conspiracy
resulted in the deaths of many daughters.
         Laura Kennedy will testify.  She lost her son, Blake.
She will tell you what it's like to lose a son.  She will tell
you about the impact of that upon her.  This conspiracy
resulted in the deaths of many sons.

         19 of those sons and daughters were under the age of
six:  Baylee Almon, Danielle Bell, Zachary Chavez, Anthony
Cooper, Antonio Cooper, Aaron Coverdale, Elijah Coverdale, Jaci
Rae Coyne, Tyler Eaves, Tevin Garrett, Kevin Gottshall, Blake
Kennedy, Dominique London, Chase Smith, Colton Smith, Gabreon
Bruce, Peachlyn Bradley, Kayla Titsworth, Ashley Eckles.
         After you've heard this evidence, you'll be satisfied
beyond a reasonable doubt that the victims of this crime were
greatly impacted.
         Ladies and gentlemen, at the end of this case, after
you've heard all the evidence, you and you alone will have to
make a sentencing decision.  We ask that you return a verdict
of death.  The punishment that fits this crime.
         Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Members of the jury, we'll take our
morning recess before hearing from counsel for the defense and
of course, you're going to hear me again repeat as I did
throughout the course of the trial the caution that throughout
all of these recesses, you must avoid discussion of the case.
Once again, I remind you of your obligation under oath to wait
until you've heard it all and to avoid the temptation to
discuss what you hear and what now you're being told that you
can expect to hear.  Wait until you have heard it all, and of
course, wait until you've heard what I have to tell you about
the manner in which you approach this information and evidence
before making a decision because the instructions that will be
given here, just as the instructions that will be -- that were
given at the end of the trial on the issue of guilt or nonguilt
or -- were part of your constructions, so too, will that be now
in connection with the decisions to be made here.
         And again, of course, you've heard counsel for the
Government outline what kinds of testimony you're going to be
hearing in the course of this.  And necessarily, there will be
emotion involved in that the kinds of testimony that will be
presented to you involve people who have, you know, experienced
emotional responses to this.  And what you're going to have to
do is separate out the emotion that will be present and that
will be present in you as you hear this type of testimony,
remembering that at the end, you'll be asked to make a
rational, reasoned, and informed decision based on the law and
the evidence and the information provided and that a part of
your obligation as jurors is to distance yourself in part from
the emotive aspects of this and look at it in a rational and
reasoned way.
         And of course, during the time of this and all
recesses, you will again avoid anything at all outside of the
evidence and information to be presented to you and that has
been presented to you so that you can decide on the basis of
what you see and hear in this courtroom and not on anything
else.  So we're going to excuse you now for our usual 20-minute
    (Jury out at 10:09 a.m.)
         MR. TIGAR:  May we approach, your Honor?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
    (At the bench:)
    (Bench Conference 144B2 is not herein transcribed by court
order.  It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)

    (In open court:)
         THE COURT:  We'll be in recess, 20 minutes.
    (Recess at 10:12 a.m.)
    (Reconvened at 10:32 a.m.)
         THE COURT:  Please be seated.
    (Jury in at 10:32 a.m.)
         THE COURT:  Members of the jury, we'll hear now an
opening statement from defense.
         Mr. Tigar . . .
                       OPENING STATEMENT
         MR. TIGAR:  Good morning, members of the jury.
         I want to outline the procedure that we expect is
going to be followed in this case.  And I want to begin by
saying that it is my duty as a lawyer to accept your verdict;
that is, 30 years ago or however long it was, 32, I guess, I
took an oath.  And it was that I would accept all results
reached by fair process, even if I didn't agree with parts of
the result.
         And that more than that, of course, it's the law; that
is to say, as his Honor has said and we expect will say again,
nobody can challenge your verdict.  Not only that, but I don't
know that there is anybody in the world except you, the 12 who
deliberated, who knows exactly the basis of what you decided.
         The Judge's instructions gave you a lot of options.
The Judge's instructions had different theories on which you
might proceed, and all we know is what you stood in court and
announced.  And as I say, we accept it.  We accept all of it.
And I hope that nothing that I say will be seen by you as an
attempt to get you to go back on it or to take it back or to,
you know -- to impose on you some other way of seeing it.  We
heard the verdict read out.
         And I can interpret the guilty on Count 1, not guilty
on Count 2, not guilty on Count 3, a finding that there was
proof that death resulted, a finding that the death was
foreseeable, and then on Counts 4 through 11, a not guilty on
first-degree murder, a not guilty on second degree murder and
guilties on involuntary manslaughter.  I could interpret those.
But it's not my job to do it.  Other lawyers can interpret
those.  It's not their job to do it.  Indeed, they don't have
the right to do it.
         And so we start from that verdict and we try to look
at a process that's going to go on here for the next few
days -- not long; for the next few days.  And it's like the old
"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot
change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom
to know the difference."
         Well, it's also clear, I think, what we want; that is
to say the lawyers at this table:  They want 12 of you, all
12 -- it takes 12 -- to sign a paper that says that some
morning or afternoon somebody should get Terry Nichols and kill
         We say that there are lots of reasons why all 12 of
you should not sign such a paper.
         Everybody who sits here as a juror was asked more
questions than I think you were comfortable with about the idea
of what would happen if you got to where we are right now; that
is to say, what is the role of the possibility of a death
sentence, the possibility of a life sentence without
possibility of parole, the idea of judge-sentencing within the
guidelines -- you know, what are these -- what are these
options and what do they mean to folks?
         And everybody took an oath, an oath that said that no
matter what we came in here with that we'd accept what the
rules are.  And the rules are that contrary to what you might
believe, no jury that is ever faced with a sentencing decision
of the kind that you are is supposed to figure if the
punishment fits the crime.  Indeed, I thought that was one of
the most basic things that we all talked about when we were
here asking questions; that is to say, the sentencing decision,
whether made by a judge or made by a jury, in our country
always, always, always relies on the fact that there is going
to be evidence about what happened in the world -- that is to
say that a terrible and tragic and horrible thing happened, and
then about the defendant's role in that, what it was exactly,
what the defendant's mental state was with respect to it, and
then beyond that about this person here as an individual human
being, over and above everything else that happened, and then
finally, where the options are, what they are here; that there
would be this conscience of the community, that reasoned moral
response which is an extra thing, a set of circumstances that
sometimes doesn't arise or at least not quite in the same way
when a judge is using some guidelines that are written by
administrators based on what Congress did.
         So that's what we're going to talk about, and it's
larger than the evidence of what happened on April 19, 1995.
         The procedure that we're going to follow here is in
three stages, and the Judge has alluded to them; and if
anything I say is at variance with what the Judge says the
instructions are, then, of course, you know who to credit.  I'm
just going to describe in general what the stages are.
         First, the jury will consider what Mr. Nichols' intent
was.  And unless all 12 believe that the Government has proved
beyond a reasonable doubt one of two intents, then the matter
goes back to the Judge to sentence in accordance with the
         Then the jury in its deliberations looks at four
statutory aggravating circumstances.  Again, the Government
must prove these beyond a reasonable doubt, at least one of
them.  And unless at least one of them is proved to the
satisfaction of 12, deliberations are over.
         Only if those two hurdles are met by the Government's
proof would the jury get into the weighing of aggravating
factors; that is, consider additional aggravating factors and
then mitigating factors presented by the defense.
         And then in that third stage, if you got there, you
would do this weighing process, remembering as the Judge said
this morning that no matter how you weighed, a sentence of
death is never required.
         Well, if that's the way that the jury's deliberations
are going to be, it's difficult for me to talk about the
evidence.  And I suggest to you it may be difficult for you all
to compartmentalize the evidence as it comes in.
         Much of the evidence about the devastation that was
wrought, about the harm that was done, about the impact on
families, is not evidence that relates to the first two phases.
It would come in, much of it, only if you got to the third
phase; and yet you're going to hear it now before you ever
start with Phase 1.
         Well, I'll share with you what I'm worried about,
about that:  I think I said in opening statement that we know
there is not a joy the world can give like that it takes away.
We know that the evidence that's going to come from that
witness stand will be the evidence of people who have lost a
great deal, and they have feelings of great sadness about that.
Some of them have feelings of anger about that.  Of course,
their anger, if they have it and if you catch it, if you catch
hold of it, is not a legitimate concern or something to
influence a decision when you get to the end; but we will all
be sad and we will all be angered -- angry, perhaps at the end.
We'll all see that evidence of devastation.  Some of it you've
already seen, but I tell you that what you are about to see is
to a geometric degree, it's exponentially, it's so much greater
in impact than what you've already seen that it is impossible
to describe.  Only perhaps some of us had life experiences in
which we've gone to scenes like this, but I tell you that this
evidence is affecting.
         For example, Carl Brown who was mentioned:  He's the
father of Dana Cooper.  He's the grandfather of Anthony
Christopher Cooper II.  Now, both of them were killed in the
bombing.  Dana was director of the day-care center, and her son
Christopher attended the day care.  And so that grandfather is
going to testify.
         You may hear in the Government's case from a medical
officer from the Oklahoma Medical Examiner's office talking
about the process of recovering the victims and attempting to
deal with the -- those who were injured and get them out and
getting the victims out and getting them identified.
         You may hear from the parents of Lakesha Levy.
Ms. Levy was killed in the bombing, and they had to suffer
additional trauma because of a problem in the way that the
evidence was handled at the scene.  Their daughter's body was
exhumed and reexamined afterwards.  I mean just a horrible set
of personal circumstances.
         And that's just a couple of examples, three examples
of what the evidence is going to be.
         As I say, I won't attempt to describe it for you; but
it will be affecting.
         What are we going to do about that?  Well, I've
already made one objection this morning.  I don't intend, and
none of us here, none of the lawyers for Terry Nichols, intend
to make a lot of objections or to do behavior that is more
appropriate to "L.A. Law" than to a courtroom, but it is a fact
that even though the rules of evidence are different at this
phase of the proceeding, there are -- there is a lot of
difficult case law out there, a lot of difficult legal rules;
and where we feel it's appropriate to make a dignified
objection, we intend to do it.  Why?  Because if we didn't make
an objection and if for some reason there was a valid legal
point, it's our obligation -- we'd be defaulting on our
obligation, and I hope you understand that.  We'll do that in a
dignified way.
         Are we going to cross-examine?  I don't think so.  We
may have a question or two for this witness or that about
something unrelated to the grief that they have or the things
that they suffered; but somehow it seems to us that to intrude
upon the stories that these folks want to tell you by
cross-examining them is inappropriate.  It doesn't add
anything.  It doesn't prove anything.  There is nothing that we
have extra to bring out.  If there should be an exception to
that, it may just be a question or two.
         We don't want to quarrel with anybody who has lost so
much.  Certainly our doing that wouldn't help to heal.
         We do hope that those that come before you who
disagree with your verdict to the extent that that may be
relevant in assessing what their feelings are that they're
relating to you will say so.
         Now, let's look at these phases that I talked about
and look at the evidence.  The first phase, as I say, deals
with this question of intent.  The Government must prove to you
beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Nichols intentionally
participated in an act contemplating that the life of a person
would be taken or intending that lethal force would be used
against a person and the victims died as a result of it.
         Now, I could sit here with the Judge's instructions --
and indeed I spent some of the time over the early part of the
holidays doing it -- trying to figure out where does that fit.
Well, you'll know.
         You can consider, by the way, all evidence that you've
heard up to now in reaching any decision that you make.  In
other words, we're not going to retry that part of the case;

and one reason is well, you already decided.  But the
Government has to prove that to you beyond a reasonable doubt.
         Alternatively, you could -- they would ask you to find
that the defendant -- that's Terry Nichols -- intentionally and
specifically engaged in an act of violence knowing that the act
created a grave risk of death to a person other than a
participant in the offense such that participation in the act
constituted a reckless disregard for human life and the victims
died as a direct result.
         So the Judge will instruct you on these things, but
that will be the first thing you'll consider:  Did the
Government prove that beyond a reasonable doubt?  Unless all 12
are in accord, as I say, then it goes back to the Judge.
         Then if you get past that hurdle, if the Government
has satisfied you, then you get to these evidence that -- these
elements Government counsel was talking about.  One of the
four, beyond a reasonable doubt, the Government has to show it
to you:
         That Mr. Nichols committed the offense after
substantial planning and premeditation to commit an act of
terrorism.  Well, when we argue this at the end, we're going to
argue the evidence of intent in much the same way that we did
in arguing at the close of the other phase of the trial.  We're
going to be looking at this same issue, the mental state.
         Then the second one is the Government alleges that the
deaths or injuries resulting in death occurred during the
commission of an offense, and the offense is transportation of
explosives in interstate commerce.  Well, that's an example of
where I don't know that there will be any evidence about that
in addition to what you already heard, because what's the
transportation?  The prosecutor said that at least they're
going to rely on two instances, one the transportation to
Arizona and the other nitromethane.
         Well, so you'll hear -- here comes Michael Fortier
again, because it's Michael Fortier -- is the one that says
that he saw all of that.  And we'll be arguing again or talking
again about the believability of Michael Fortier and whether
that's enough to sustain a Government burden beyond a
reasonable doubt.
         The alternative is nitromethane.  And you'll recall
that the person who sold the nitromethane couldn't identify the
truck by year or age or anything -- it was just a pickup truck
with a camper -- and said that the purchaser certainly was not
Terry Nichols but was a man who looked like a possum.  We'll be
talking about that at the end.
         The third one of these is that the defendant committed
the offense against one or more federal law enforcement
officers because of such victims' status as federal law
enforcement officers.  You returned verdicts with respect to
the eight law enforcement officers.  And I'm not going to argue
with you about what that did or didn't mean.  You considered
that question, and now you will look at whether the Government
has proved beyond a reasonable doubt some such desire to act
against law enforcement officers.
         And the final one was that the defendant knowingly
created a grave risk of death.  Well, the prosecutor talked
about the grave risk of death.  There is no question that when
this bomb went off there was a grave risk of death to a large
number of people other than those who actually died.
         The knowingly element of the offense is going to be
before you to consider.
         So that -- that's the second part.  They've got to
prove one of those beyond a reasonable doubt to you; and as I
say, the Judge will instruct you.
         Then finally, if you got there, if you got past that,
then you would consider the other three aggravating factors:
168 people, causing serious emotional injury, caused injury and
loss to -- suffered by the victims' families.  That's when that
evidence would become relevant; and at that point, then you'd
also consider in addition to whether or not the Government had
established that beyond a reasonable doubt -- you'd take a look
at Terry Nichols, the human being.  And in addition to the
items that are referred to by Government counsel, there are
certain things that the law permits us to bring forward to you
and to present evidence about, things about the circumstances
of the offense and things about the circumstances of Terry
         And of course, we'll do that.  For example, we will
present evidence that Mr. Nichols' participation in the offense
was relatively minor -- relative compared to others.  That's
something the law looks at in attempting to make sure that
sentencing decisions are made in a fair way, in a way that is
some kind of distributive justice.  That's something that isn't
going to take a lot of evidence but certainly it will be there
for your consideration.
         Then we're going to present evidence that others who
were equally culpable will not be punished by death.  And
you'll look at the circumstances.  You'll ask yourself whether
other people who had a same or similar degree of involvement
are going to receive death penalty.  And there, we'll ask you
to look at such things as the treatment afforded Michael
Fortier or other people that the Government hasn't even
bothered to look for.
         We're going to ask you to look at Mr. Nichols' mental
state, whether or not somebody was attempting to coerce him to
act in certain ways.  We're going to ask you to look at the
fact, of course, of no prior criminal record.
         But beyond those things, we want to present to you a
picture of a person who -- whose life pattern is
inconsistent -- inconsistent with what?  Inconsistent with the
first decision that you are required to make; that is to say,
with respect to an intent actually to take a life -- so that
will factor in there, too -- inconsistent with the aggravating
factors that the Government has talked about but also
inconsistent with the qualities that would say that he is
beyond redemption in the sense that you will be required to
         It's very interesting:  We're not going to relitigate
what you've seen before; that is to say, we're not going to go
back over all the evidence about what happened in the past and
Lana Padilla talked about that, or the evidence that happened
in the past about what Mrs. Nichols, Marife Nichols talked
about.  We're going to focus on examples, events, in Terry
Nichols' life that give you a glimpse into who he is.
         What happened after he was arrested?  It was nearly a
year before he was permitted to touch his children; that is to
say, there were regulations that said that he had -- there had
to be a glass wall.  And so how did he keep in touch with his
children during that time?  How did he reach out to them?  What
sorts of human characteristics did he display towards them?
And you'll see that.
         My describing it isn't going to help you understand or
see what it is.  You'll see it.  You'll see the fact that yes,
he's been in custody, he was denied bail, which meant that
there are certain things that were denied him such as sharp
objects like pencils and pens and so how he would fashion cards
to send his children using little colored toothpaste to make
the designs in the corners and how finally when contact visits,
as they're called, were allowed he would welcome his children
in and try to meet with them under circumstances that were as
normal as possible; the younger children, to work with them
with flash cards and to work with them to be as much of a
father to them under these circumstances as he could; how he
tried to keep in touch with Josh, his son, to talk to him on
the phone, to write him letters to provide guidance; how he
reached out to his family, to his sister, to his brothers, to
his mother and father, in all of this how he used his
creativity to benefit these people in his family and to bring
to them whatever it was that could make up for the fact that he
was in the circumstance that he is.
         You're going to hear a little more about what I said
in opening statement, what we had evidence about before; that
is to say, this extraordinary dedication to the well-being of
his children.  You'll recall that when Mr. Nichols went into
the Army, he did so because he had been having marital
difficulty with then Mrs. Nichols, now Lana Padilla, and that
they had a young son, Josh.  And it wasn't very long after he
went in that he found that Josh was for all intents and
purposes not being taken care of.  So he went and got Josh and
was raising him as a single parent, hired somebody to take care
of him when he was off on the post; and finally at the urging
of his superiors in the Army obtained a honorable discharge so
that he could continue to care for Josh and that when he
returned to Michigan to care for Josh, he found that Lana's
sons by a former marriage needed care, also; so he started
raising them.
         You'll find that in his community, growing up, he
reached out to help a number of people and was active in doing
things, not just what you'd expect in farm country but well
beyond that.
         In short, members of the jury, we're going to present
a picture of Terry Nichols, the human being.  And when you've
heard that evidence, we're going to ask you to do a number of
things.  First is to consider it with respect to that first
group of questions that you'll have; that is to say that you
may think it unlikely that he would have formed that specific
intent to kill.  And when you do that, of course, you will
reflect on the meaning of the verdict that you've already
rendered that we're not going to argue with you about and we
trust that nobody else will try to.
         Second, we'll ask to you look at that with respect to
the intent elements that must be proved with respect to those
aggravating factors; that is, the fact that what happened was
severe and devastated a lot of people is of course not enough.
The Government has this extra burden with respect to intent.
         And finally, should you get there, what we'll suggest
to you is that the death penalty in this case is not a reasoned
moral response to what the evidence shows has occurred here.
And I'm not going to try to anticipate the sorts of arguments
that we will make at the end.  I can promise you this:  Nobody
can educate you, nobody can try to convince you as to what your
morals ought to be.  That's not -- that isn't contemplated by
the rules.  When reasoned moral response is spoken of, it is
really a handing over to you to reach very deep inside yourself
to a place that you may not have visited before and to ask
yourself as the conscience of the community what's required.
         We submit that if you get there that it will be
appropriate for you -- it will be appropriate for you -- and
that's the most I can say -- to choose life.
         THE COURT:  Members of the jury, you've now heard the
opening statements from both sides, and we're ready to proceed
to take the testimony and consider the other information to be
         I do want to introduce to you at this time an
additional attorney for the Government who will be
participating in this presentation, Mr. Randal Sengel, who is
here now at the back table, who was not with us during the
trial of the evidence in the case but will participate now in
the presentation of the Government's information in this phase.
Mr. Sengel is an assistant to Mr. Ryan in the Western District
of Oklahoma in the United States Attorney's office.
         So we're ready, then, for the first witness by the
         MR. MACKEY:  Thank you, your Honor.  We'll begin by
calling Ms. Laura Kennedy.  Mr. Ryan will present.
         THE COURT:  All right.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Laura Kennedy affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Laura C. Kennedy, K-E-N-N-E-D-Y.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Mr. Ryan.
         MR. RYAN:  Thank you, your Honor.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q.  Good morning, Mrs. Kennedy.
A.  Good morning.
Q.  Tell the jury where you live.
A.  I live near Amber, Oklahoma.
Q.  And where is Amber?
A.  It's about 40 miles from Oklahoma City.
Q.  Where were you born and raised?

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
A.  Verden, Oklahoma.
Q.  What size community is Verden?
A.  Pretty small.
Q.  Are you married?
A.  Yes.
Q.  When were you married?
A.  June 15, 1991.
Q.  Do you have children?
A.  Yes.
Q.  What is your child's name?
A.  Blake Ryan Kennedy.
Q.  And when was Blake born?
A.  October 10, 1993.
Q.  He died in the Murrah Building?
A.  Yes.
Q.  What was his age at the time of his death?
A.  He was 18 months old.
Q.  Are you currently employed?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Where do you work?
A.  I work for Southern Plains Medical Center in Chickasha,
Q.  What do you do there?
A.  I'm a payroll clerk.
Q.  And your husband?  What is his name?

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
A.  Steve.
Q.  What does Steve do?
A.  He is a hired hand for a farmer near Amber.
Q.  What is your education?
A.  After I finished high school, I went to Southwestern
Oklahoma State University, and I graduated with a B.S. in
Q.  Let's talk about April of 1995.  Would you tell the jury
where you worked at that time.
A.  I was working on the 3d floor for the United States
Department of Health and Human Services, Office of Inspector
General, Office of Audit; and I was an auditor.
Q.  3d floor of the Murrah Building?
A.  3d floor, yes.
Q.  And what was Blake doing during the days in April, 1995?
A.  He was in the day care on the 2d floor.
Q.  And he was attending the day-care center?
A.  Yes.
Q.  When did he start attending day care?
A.  He started attending that day care as soon as I went back
to work after having him.  He was six weeks old.
Q.  So he had been there for approximately how long?
A.  From 6 weeks to 18 months.
Q.  So 14 1/2 months or so?
A.  Yeah.

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
Q.  Now, tell the jury a little bit about Blake, his
personality, what he was like.
A.  Blake was a really outgoing, friendly, bubbly personality,
really friendly, always saying hi to people and laughing and
playing and just a really good kid.
Q.  Did people in the Murrah Building know him?
A.  Yes.
Q.  How is that?
A.  Even before Blake was born and I worked in the Murrah
Building, everybody in the building just kind of always watched
the kids.  There was a playground at the back of the building
and where my office was, it overlooked the playground; so we
kind of watched them out there on the playground.  And I know
that other people in the building seen him on holidays and just
out there on the playground, just different places.  Everybody
in the building knew a lot of the kids.
         MR. RYAN:  Okay.  Let's see Exhibit 1477, which is
already admitted in evidence.
         As I understood, these photographs were agreed to
between counsel.  I'll let Mr. Mackey speak to that.
         THE COURT:  I don't think they were formally admitted.
That is the point being raised by the clerk.
         MR. MACKEY:  I should report that we have a
foundational agreement with counsel; that photographs depicting
those deceased or injured will be offered in this manner.

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
         THE COURT:  I think we can proceed simply to offer
         MR. TIGAR:  Yes, your Honor.  We certainly have no
objection about foundation.  We would like them shown one at a
time so that we can keep track.
         MR. RYAN:  I will offer Exhibit 1477.
         MR. TIGAR:  And we have no objection.
         THE COURT:  It is received and may be displayed.
Q.  If you would, Mrs. Kennedy, tell us about this photograph.
A.  That's a picture of my husband, Steve, and myself and
Q.  And how old is Blake at the time of this photograph?
A.  At the time of that photo, he was 5 1/2 months.
Q.  All right.  Now, let's turn to April 19; and if you would,
tell us when you got up and what you did that morning before
going to the Murrah Building.
A.  Okay.  We probably got up about 6 or so and got around
there.  We live near Amber, so it takes us about, with rush
hour traffic -- it would take us about an hour to get downtown
to the Murrah Building.  So, you know, we get up, get dressed,
get around.  I always tried to get Blake up last thing and just
get him up and change his clothes.
         They fed him breakfast at the day care, so he didn't
eat breakfast with us; so I just tried to get him up last

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
unless he woke up on his own.
         And we drove to Oklahoma City.  Blake was tired that
day.  We'd had a busy week.  Easter had been that Sunday, and
we just were busy out there at home on the farm and we were
kind of busy that time of year.  We were having some baby
lambs; and he was tired, so he slept that morning, which was a
little unusual.  Since he had gotten older, he usually stayed
awake during the drive, but he did sleep --
Q.  Was Steve with you on the drive?
A.  Yes.  Steve was driving.
Q.  About what time did you arrive downtown?
A.  About 8, 8:05.
Q.  And was Steve driving?
A.  Yes, Steve was driving.  He was -- he usually dropped me
and Blake off there in front of the building and then he went
on to work.  He worked at I-40 and Agnew, which was a little
ways drive.  So -- and then he'd come back and get us.  It --
just because of our work schedule, it was better if he dropped
us off.
Q.  Is that what he did that morning?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did he tell Blake good-bye?
A.  Yes.  Blake woke up when we got there, and we stood there
on the sidewalk and Steve did like he did most mornings.  He
said bye to Blake and tried to get Blake to wave and say bye or

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
whatever.  And he just -- Blake didn't say anything.  He just
kind of stared at him.
Q.  Now, did you go up to the day-care center at that time?
A.  Yes.  I went in the front doors and went up the stairs to
the day care on the second floor.
Q.  Tell us about that.
A.  They had a door there that you had to ring a buzzer so
somebody could come get you and let you in, so I did that.
         And Wanda Howell, one of the day-care workers there,
came to the door and let me and Blake in; and as soon as Blake
seen her, he just got to bouncing in my arms, he was so
excited.  He always -- as soon as he seen one of those
teachers, he knew that he was going to day care and how much
fun he had there; and she let us in, and we followed her into
the big room there.
         I put Blake down on the floor, set him down on the
floor; and I went into another room that was his area and put
up his -- his diaper bag.  And I came back through that big
room; and Wanda had put Blake in a highchair, and she was
trying to get him to say bye to me or whatever.
         And Colton Smith said something to me -- something to
me; and most of the kids, several of the other kids were there
because it was, you know, most of the time -- most of them were
there at that time and they were all sitting around a big
table.  They were getting ready to eat breakfast.

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
Q.  Is that -- and is that when you left?
A.  Yeah.  I -- I -- I told Blake I'd see him later and left,
and I signed him -- you had to like sign him in; and I signed
him in on my way out.  And there was a clock right there, and
it was 8:05.
Q.  Is that the last time you saw Blake?
A.  Yes.
Q.  All right.  You went to work there, I guess, on the 3d
floor that morning?
A.  Yes, went up the stairs to the 3d floor.
Q.  Tell us about 9:00.
A.  I went into our office.  We have -- we had a break room,
and then two auditors had offices and the rest of us were out
there and had cubicles out there; and I went into my cubicle
and was sitting down and doing some work, doing some paperwork.
I had been back from an audit.  I had been out in the field
doing an audit a couple weeks before that and was wrapping up
some paperwork.
Q.  What happened?
A.  I was stamping some papers.  I was stamping some papers,
and that's about the last thing I remember till after the
Q.  What's your next recollection?
A.  My next recollection is I opened my eyes and it was blurry.
I closed my eyes again and I opened them again, and everything

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
was in such a mess.  There was stuff scattered everywhere.
There was just this white, dusty stuff all over everything.
Nothing looked like it did.  I -- my desk, my walls around my
cubicle -- I mean none of that stuff was there.  Nothing looked
like it -- like it did before.
         And I started trying to kind of stand up, and I had
some stuff on top of my legs, and I tried to pull my legs out;
and I could tell that I didn't have on one of my shoes, and I
was kneeling for it, but I couldn't see it because my legs were
under some stuff and I couldn't find my shoe, but I managed to
get my legs pulled out.
         And my boss, Jim Hargrove -- he seen me and he started
yelling at me, asking me if I was okay.
         And then --
Q.  Could you see to the outside?
A.  We could see in three -- I never looked like back into the
building, but we could see in three directions sky, blue sky in
three directions.
Q.  All right.

A.  We did have windows to the back of the building, but I
could see in three directions sky.
Q.  Who else was there?
A.  Carol Clear, Ginger Addison, Jamie Radacy, Sam Patterson,
and Michael Reyes.
Q.  Was Michael Reyes assigned to the 3d floor of the Murrah

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
A.  No.  I didn't know who he was or where he came from.  He
was just kind of there with the rest of us.  We didn't know who
he was or where he came from.
Q.  Did you subsequently find out that he had fallen from the
7th floor?
A.  Later I found out that he had worked on the 7th floor and
apparently had fallen to our floor.
Q.  Okay.  Were you able to get out of the building?
A.  Yes.  We all started yelling at each other, and we were all
basically okay.  Michael had quite a bit of blood especially on
the back of his shirt.  But he didn't act like he was in any
really great pain.  He just seemed to be, I guess, in shock.
We were all kind of in shock and didn't know what had happened.
         And there at the back of the building, where our
office was more towards the back of the building, where our
windows were, there is kind of a ledge down.  When you go in
the back of the building, you were already on the 2d floor, so
there is kind of a little ledge from the 3d down there to the
plaza, and we basically slid down that ledge to get out.
Q.  Were you injured?
A.  I -- at the time, I really didn't think I was or know I
was; but later on in the day, my back got to hurting really bad
and I had a blue spot on my cheekbone that was a slightly
cracked cheekbone.  And then as we were getting out, I did cut

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
my hand on the glass, on the window.
Q.  Now, when you got out of the building, what was your first
A.  Well, as soon as I opened my eyes that first time, you
know, I thought about Blake, you know.  Basically with me being
on the 3d floor and him being on the 2d floor, I was, you know,
kind of above him; and I thought that maybe what I was walking
around on up there was our floor, was his ceiling; and I
thought maybe stuff hadn't fallen down on him, but I wanted to
see him.  I mean I was concerned about him; and I said his
name, you know, two or three times up there to my co-workers.
Q.  What did you do when you got outside about Blake?
A.  I got down on the plaza; and I only had one shoe, and it
was completely covered in pieces of glass.  And I couldn't
hardly get around with just one shoe, but I hobbled around; and
I was at the back of the building, the back doors, and a woman
come up to me and I told her that my son was in the day care
and I needed to check on him.
         And she asked me if I believed in God.
         And I said yes, and so we said a prayer.
         And she told me that she thought the kids had already
gotten out.
         And I saw a couple GSA workers there at the back --
back door; and I thought maybe that they had just gotten the
kids out or were fixing to get the kids out, because I know

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
that everybody in the building thought the kids were pretty
special and that, you know, they would always be first.
Q.  So what did you do?
A.  A man come up to me and that woman and said that I couldn't
stay there, I needed to go down to the sidewalk; that I
couldn't stay up there.
         And so I didn't -- I argued a little but not a whole
lot, and I went down to the sidewalk.
Q.  Did you find Steve?
A.  Down on the sidewalk, I saw my other co-workers; and we
were hugging each other.  And there was a lot of people down

there on the sidewalk.  There was already policemen down there.
It was just so chaotic.  There were so many people down there;
and as I was standing there with them and basically telling
them, you know, I don't know anything about Blake, they won't
tell me where Blake is.  And I looked across the street and
Steve, my husband, was running across the street.
Q.  Once you met up with Steve, what did you do?
A.  Well, I mean, basically, I told him that I didn't know --
they wouldn't tell me where Blake was, and that's all I kept
saying:  They won't tell me where Blake is.  And we decided to
try to ask somebody, try to find out where they were.  And we
had trouble getting across certain streets.  They -- the police
had certain streets blocked off.  Certain alleyways were
blocked off, and we just walked and walked and walked and

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
walked down there.  And they would say that the kids are over
here on this corner; and we'd walk over to that corner, and
those were the kids that had come out of the YMCA.  And you
know, those aren't the day-care kids that were in the Murrah
Building.  Those are the YMCA kids.  And we just walked and
         And finally, we walked to a parking lot that we were
told was some sort of command center.  And there we saw Melva
Noakes, who was the day-care director, and I didn't know she
wasn't in the building; and she said she wasn't in the building
and she didn't know anything about the kids.
         And we saw Jim and Claudia Denney, who have two kids
in the day care, and they didn't really know anything, either.
         And somebody there told us that they were taking the
kids to Red Cross.
Q.  Let me stop you there for one moment.  From the time you
left that building until the time you went to the Red Cross,
did it ever cross your mind those children were still in the
A.  No, not really.  No.
Q.  All right.  You went to the Red Cross building?
A.  Yes.  We were with Jim and Claudia over there in the Red
Cross.  They had an automobile that was parked in front of the
IRS building where Claudia worked, and Steve was parked pretty
far away; so we rode with them over there to the Red Cross.

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
When we got to Red Cross, there was a line of people to donate
blood; and it was a very busy place, Red Cross was.  They took
some -- we filled out a missing persons report, and then they
took us upstairs to the 2d floor, whatever that there were some
kids up there; and when we got up there, they were kids from
the YMCA that their parents did not find them downtown and they
had brought them there.
         And we finally realized that's what we'd been told all
day, was people had always told us about the YMCA kids and not
the Murrah Building kids.  People were confused.
Q.  Okay.  Did you get information there while you were there
at the Red Cross about the day-care kids at the Murrah
A.  They started taking some descriptions and taking some
pictures.  There was quite a few of the family -- families
there, quite a few of the other parents were there up in
that -- on that 2d floor.
         And so somehow they were faxing -- somehow they were
getting those descriptions to the hospitals, and the hospitals
were faxing lists of people that had been admitted to the
emergency rooms, which seems kind of silly because those kids
couldn't have gave their names at the hospital; but I mean, if
that was all the hope you had at that point, you know, you were
going to look at those lists and see.
Q.  Did Mr. and Mrs. Denney receive some information while you

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
were at the Red Cross?
A.  Yes.  There was some TVs that were on; and a report came
over the TV of a red-headed little girl in surgery, and that
was their daughter, Rebecca.
Q.  And did they leave?
A.  One of -- they were there with one of Jim's sons, and I
believe that he stayed and they went, I think, was how it
Q.  Who else was there?  Was Mrs. Chavez there?
A.  Yes, the Chavezes were there, the Gottshalls were there.
Q.  Did Mrs. Chavez receive some information while you were at
Red Cross?
A.  Later on in the day, a TV was on and the TV report come
over that some children had died.  And then it finally hit me
and I started crying, and I said, "It's not Blake, it's not
         And later on in the day, we were just all kind of
sitting.  A lot of people left, and we were just all kind of
sitting there waiting, hoping.  And some friend came, some --
he was like a county deputy came by and told Zackary Chavez's
mom -- he asked her -- I couldn't see her, but I could hear
her.  He asked her what specifically Zackary was wearing.
         And she described what he was wearing.
         And I didn't hear what he told her then, but she
started screaming that she wished she was dead; and I knew that

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
he had told her that he had found Zackary and that he was dead.
Q.  Did you ever receive any information about Blake that
A.  No.  I stayed there at the Red Cross till very late.  A lot
of Steve and my family members had come up there, and they
convinced me that they would stay there at the Red Cross and
that I should go over to the hospital.  My whole cheek was
Q.  Did you go?
A.  And I went over to Presbyterian to the emergency room.
Q.  And what did you do after Presbyterian?
A.  Came back to Red Cross, and then we finally decided to
leave.  They talked about putting us up in a hotel, but we
decided to leave and spend the night with my parents.
Q.  All right.  Tell us about the next morning briefly, what
you did on Thursday, April 20.
A.  We got up fairly early and went back up to the city and
went to the church where the family members were supposed to
Q.  This is the church at 36th and Shartel?
A.  Yes -- yes.
Q.  First Christian Church?
A.  Yes, First Christian.  Yes.
Q.  What did you do there?
A.  We basically just sat and wait.  At the emergency room,

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
they had gave me muscle relaxers and painkillers, so I was kind
of pretty numb.  We basically just sit there and wait with a
lot of our family members.
         There were some newspapers, there were some TV
reports, and we kind of looked at them a little bit for -- I
was kind of interested in to see if I could find anything out
about Brenda Daniels.  That was one of the workers there at the
day-care.  That was Blake's teacher, and Brenda had been there
since Blake was a baby and Brenda was his favorite; and I was
kind of concerned about where she was, what had happened to
Q.  Did the Medical Examiner's office have any information on
Thursday, April 20, that they could share with you about Blake?
A.  No.  I didn't hear anything Thursday.
Q.  Let's turn to Friday, April 21, the following day.  What
did you do that day?
A.  Well, basically, the same thing.  On Thursday and Friday
both, Steve and I went upstairs and lay down for a little
while.  Like I said, I was on some medication that kind of made
me numb, kind of made me kind of sleepy.
Q.  Upstairs in the church?
A.  Upstairs in the church, yes.
Q.  At some point that day, did the FBI come and talk to you?
A.  On Friday afternoon, they decided to bring the family --
the parents of the children in the day care into a little

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
chapel they have there.
         Some of Steve's family members had brought some more
pictures of Blake, and I gave those.  And they told us that
they were going to go out to the homes and do some
Q.  And did they do that?
A.  Yes, they did.
Q.  At your home?
A.  Yes, they did.
Q.  Did you take pictures to the church that day?
A.  We had a picture book that had lots of pictures of Blake,
and I had a little piece of paper in there that had I gotten
from the hospital when he was born.  And it had his footprints
on it, and I thought maybe that would help identify him; and I
gave that to them.
Q.  On Saturday, April 22, were you given some information
about Blake?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Tell us about that.
A.  On Saturday morning when we got to the church -- we spent
Friday night with my parents again because we didn't want to go
home.  We didn't feel like we were ready to go home yet.  On
Saturday morning when we got to the church, some of Steve's
family was already there; and when we came in the door, some of
the women that we had kind of talked to the last few days

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
seemed like they were kind of avoiding us.
         And we went back and sat down on the chairs and we
went over and got some food, and I come back and sat in the
chair.  And I was trying to eat the food, but I just started
         And -- because I was so tired and it was so -- so --
didn't know what was going on, and it had been such a long two
or three days.
         And Steve put his arm around me and said, "We'll find
something out today."
         And right after he said that, they -- some people came
and got us.  And you knew when they came and got you where you
were going and what it was.
Q.  Now it's been over two-and-a-half years since Blake died.
Would you tell the jury what the impact of Blake's death has
been on you and Steve.
A.  Blake meant everything to me, my only child; and he was
such a special little boy.  And he was such -- such an
important part of our family.  We have big families, we have
close families; and Blake was always the center of attention.
And he just -- he gave so much love.  He was so special and he
was so full of life that when he died, it took a part of me.  I
have an emptiness inside of me that's there all the time.  I'm
always thinking about him, and it's hard to get on with your
life when somebody that was so important and was such a big

                     Laura Kennedy - Direct
part of your life is gone.
         Everything I did from the day he was born to the day
he died was for him.  He was always priority.  I mean he was
basically the reason that, you know -- that I lived.  And after
he died, it -- it didn't seem to matter what happened.
Q.  Do you and Steve have any other children?
A.  No.
Q.  Have you given some thought to having other children?
A.  Maybe in a few months when this is over and things settle
down.  I would want them to know about Blake's life, but I also
have to tell them about his death and to explain why Blake
died, why his classmates died, why his teachers died, and why a
whole bunch of other people died.  Be kind of hard to do when I
don't even know why that happened myself.  How do I explain it?
Q.  Did Blake have his own room?
A.  Yes.
Q.  What's the status of that room today?
A.  It's basically the same as it was before the bombing.
Q.  Have you been inside the room?
A.  Yes.  I was in there not too long ago.
Q.  Did you take anything out?
A.  A few things but not much.
         MR. RYAN:  That's all I have, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Do you have any questions?
         MR. TIGAR:  No.  No questions, your Honor.  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  All right.  You may step down.  You're
         Next witness, please.
         MR. MACKEY:  Yes, your Honor.  We'll call Jerry
Flowers, and Mr. Sengel will present.
         THE COURT:  Thank you.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Raise your right hand, please.
    (Jerry Flowers affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Jerry Flowers, F-L-O-W-E-R-S.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Mr. Sengel.
         MR. SENGEL:  Thank you, your Honor.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q.  Would you tell us where you live, Mr. Flowers.
A.  Oklahoma City.
Q.  And you're obviously with the Oklahoma City Police
Department.  Is that right?
A.  That's right.
Q.  How long have you been a member of the Oklahoma City Police
A.  Be 24 years 1st of November.

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
Q.  If you would please tell us briefly some of the units and
assignments you've had in your 24 years on the Oklahoma City
Police Department.
A.  Well, I spent my first six years in the Patrol Division,
and after that I was promoted to the rank of detective.  I've
been an investigator in robbery, homicide, white-collar crime,
forgery details, vice detail; and I'm currently assigned to the
Gang Enforcement Unit, where I'm an investigator on a drive-by
shooting team and investigating violent crimes involving street
Q.  In April of 1995, then, if my math is correct, you would
have been about 22 years on the force at that time?
A.  That's right.
Q.  Prior to April of 1995, had you had training in rescue
A.  Yes, I had.
Q.  Had any training or experience you had prepared you for
April 19, 1995?
A.  Absolutely no.  Nothing.
Q.  The morning of April 19, 1995:  Where were you when you
learned of the bombing?
A.  I was at our Police Training Center, which is at 800 block
of North Portland, approximately 6 miles from downtown Oklahoma
City.  And we were there doing a training exercise on our
Tactical Response Team.  I'm a hostage negotiator for the

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
Oklahoma City Police Tac. Team.
Q.  How did you become aware of the bombing?
A.  We were sitting around a conference table that morning,
several of the negotiators, preparing for the day's activities
for training.  It was just a couple minutes after 9:00 when a
devastating blast shook the entire building that we were in.
It shook it so hard, the ceiling tiles above us shook loose and
dust fell from the ceiling down onto us; and of course, we were
all confused.  We had no idea what that was.  It was a real
loud bang.
Q.  After feeling the blast, then, what did you do?
A.  Several of us ran out into the parking lot.  Our first
impression -- what we were looking for, we thought maybe it was
an airliner had crashed because we are kind of right in the
flight line of Will Rogers World Airport.  We ran outside to
see if that in fact was what it was; but when we ran outside
which we could see downtown and the high-rise buildings from
where we were at, we could see black smoke billowing out from
the downtown area above the city.
Q.  What did you do next?
A.  We ran back into the building; and one of the division
commanders, Major Steve Upchurch, had told us that the federal
building had just blown up.
         At this point, myself, Sergeant Steve Carson and
Sergeant Don Hull, two of the other negotiators with me that

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
day -- we ran out to my car which was out in the parking lot,
my patrol unit, and we put -- we just had jeans and regular
street clothes, but we put on some jackets that identified us
as police; and we immediately drove to the downtown area as
quick as we could get there.
Q.  How close were you able to get to the Murrah Building when
you drove downtown?
A.  When we drove into downtown, the debris and people
started -- it was real thick.  It was hard to drive in
downtown, but I finally worked my way up to about Dean A. McGee
and Harvey, a couple blocks away from the federal building.
That's as close as I could get.  The closer I got, the more
rocks, cement, pieces of rock, cement were laying in the
streets; and people started just running everywhere, injured
Q.  Did you make your way then to the Murrah Building?
A.  We did.  We got out of the car and we started working our
way up there.  We ran up to the federal building.  And I got
right up to the southwest corner of the building, and there was
an ambulance setting there; and this ambulance technician was
screaming at all the officers -- it was mainly police officers
at that point that were there -- and he was screaming at us,
kept yelling, "Apply pressure to the wounded to stop the
         It was when I rolled up to that area, I walked up to

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
that area.  I remember seeing a young lady, looked -- she was
like 25 to 35 years old.  She was sitting on the curb not far
from where the ambulance was at; and as I looked at this lady
in disbelief, basically, I saw she had either a shirt or a
sweater or some type of clothing she had pressed up against her
head.  She was bleeding profusely.  But disregarding her own
injuries, I noticed that she was trying to console this little
eight-year-old girl -- looked to be seven, eight years old.
She had her arm around this child, and the child also was
bleeding.  Her hair was matted up with the -- with blood and
the gray dust that was everywhere down there.
         And that really touched me.
Q.  Could you see the front of the Murrah Building?
A.  We were on the southwest corner, and I could see the south
side of the building where the plaza is at; but as I looked at
that, on the north side of the building, I could see the black
smoke just pouring out of the north side of the building and
coming up and just -- in droves.
         It was at that point my partner and I for some reason
took off running around to that side of the building.
Q.  When you went around to the north or front side of the
Murrah Building, could you see the parking lot across the
A.  As we -- yes, we could.  As we -- we got up to 5th Street
on the northwest corner and we both stopped, actually, the --

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
what used to be 5th Street was covered with debris.  Cars were
on fire.  That's where the smoke was coming from, were the cars
in the parking lot.  There was a tree setting out in this
parking lot that was on fire with the hood of a car setting in
the top of it.
         The -- you couldn't just run down 5th Street.  There
was glass, there was water, there was smoke so thick you
couldn't hardly see as you started going up into this thing.
But we tried to work our way up to the area as close as we
could get.
Q.  Could you see a crater in front of the Murrah Building?
A.  Yes, I did.  As we got up towards the where -- being
familiar with it, close to where the drive-through area was,
there was a big hole there about the size of a swimming pool
that we noticed.  And it was about that time is when our
attention was caught by one of our robbery detectives, Sergeant
Bob Smart that was standing in a hole on the northwest corner
of the building screaming at us, "Let's get these people out";
and that's where our attention was directed at that point.
Q.  So then you went to the northwest corner of the building?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And did you enter the building at that point?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  What did you do when you entered the building?
A.  Steve Carson and I went up together.  Don had gotten

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
separated from us somewhere.  I don't know where he went.  But
Steve and I got up to the front of the building.  We started to
enter into this -- into this hole into the building when we
were immediately handed a board stretcher of a gentleman that
was laying on the stretcher.  We couldn't really tell much
about him because he was covered with this gray dust.
Everything was gray because the dust was so thick.
         But as they handed him to us, you know, the training
about, you know, talking to somebody being in shock -- it was
my first thing that I wanted to try to do.  But as they lowered
him down to us -- we had a human chain, if you will, coming out
of the building from people behind us, because you couldn't
just walk around because the debris and stuff was so thick.
But as they handed him to me, I brought him down to tell him
that you're going to be okay; but when he did, I noticed that
under the dust there was a laceration going across his face,
looked 4 or 5 inches deep, and he obviously was dead.
Q.  Now, you mentioned the debris in the building.  Did you
actually walk around in the building?
A.  No.  It's kind of a misconception.  When you got inside the
building, you more crawled over and over and under and through.
There was still rebar.  I can remember that was protruding from
the floor, from the ground; and this stuff was 2 and 3 inches
in diameter.  You're trying to work your way through that.
There was electrical lines that were flying around sparking.

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
The cement, what used to be floors or used to be ceilings,
whatever it was, was all broken and broken into large pieces;
and you had to crawl up, step up and crawl over stuff like
Q.  I'd like to show you, if you'd look in front of you,
Mr. Flowers, an exhibit we've marked, a photograph, as 1499.
And does that represent the kinds of conditions that you saw in
the building as you entered?
A.  Yes, it does.
         MR. SENGEL:  Your Honor, I'm going to offer Exhibit
         MR. TIGAR:  No objection your Honor.
         THE COURT:  It's received, may be displayed.
Q.  The building as you mentioned -- as you enter, I take it,
all the rescuers had to basically crawl around to get access
into the building.
A.  That's right.
Q.  Could you see very well as you entered the building?
A.  When I first got in there, again, the dust was so thick --
and when I say "thick," it was so thick you could wave your
hand in front of your face and move this dust.  It was very
hard to breathe and it was very dark.
         And we worked our way into this first room; and it was
like a storage room or some type of maintenance room, the best

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
we could tell.
         That's when there was another one of our police
officers by the name of Sergeant Mike Goodspeed that was in
there; and as we all three were starting to dig, Mike started
screaming at everybody to shut up, everybody be quiet.  And as
he did that, we started to hear a faint voice, a female's
voice.  And this voice was asking for help, trying to -- and
crying and just kept saying, "Help me, help me."
         As we would try to pinpoint where we could hear that,
then we would try to go to that area and dig; but as we started
to dig, we would cover up that sound.  And again we'd have to
be quiet and try to find it.  And unfortunately, it faded away
and we never found her.
Q.  After attempting to locate that voice, where did you go
A.  We stayed in that area just a short time and more people
started coming in, so Steve and I decided to try to work our
way on back into the building.  We kind of went into a
southerly direction, and we kind of got into -- the best I can
describe like a hallway that went drastically down.  As we
started to go down, it started getting incredibly dark.  You
could see some ray of light in parts of the building, but we
were crawling over these cement slabs and through this rebar
and through this electrical line sparking.  And as I started to
go down, the water started coming up; and in fact it got up

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
over the top of my boots that I was wearing that day.
         We started to get into an area that as we walked in it
looked like a cave -- is what I referred to as the pit area.
And as we got into this area, I could see --
Q.  Mr. Flowers, before you go on, I want to show you, if you
would, please, a photograph we've marked as Exhibit 1503 and
ask you is this a photograph of the pit area you're referring
A.  Yes, it is.  Now, that is not what it looked like exactly
when we were in there because that's uncovered, but that's the
pit because there is a hole.  It was just a hole in the ground
inside there.  Yes, that is -- reflects the pit.
         MR. SENGEL:  Your Honor, I'm going to offer 1503.
         MR. TIGAR:  No objection, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Received, may be shown.
Q.  Now, you told us as you entered this area initially, of
course, the water was over your boots.  Could you see in the
pit when you first entered it?
A.  When I first got in there, it was incredibly dark; but as I
started to get in, there was a ray of light that I was trying
to work my way to.  And as I got over to that, what it was was
a hole, a pretty good-sized hole that you could see from the
bottom of the pit up; and as I remember, I stood up and looked
up.  And as I looked up, I could see about nine floors of what

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
used to be floors there that had fallen, and I realized then
that they had pancaked right on top of where we were at; that
they were underneath all these floors that had landed on top of
each other.
Q.  When you saw the floors that had fallen on top of each
other, were there anyone -- people between the floors?
A.  Well, it was about that time that a generator was brought
down and I turned the lights onto this generator so we could
see.  We could hear people screaming, "Help me," and "Get me
out of here; don't leave me here to die."
         And as I flipped the lights on this generator after
being down there for a few minutes -- there was eight or ten of
us in this area, and we all stopped in amazement, in disbelief,
I guess you could say.  The floor above us you could reach up
and touch.  It was a cement -- cement floors had fallen above
us.  What used to be a ceiling now was a floor.
         These floors, as you looked above your heads, there
were circles about anywhere from 2 to 3 foot in diameter of
blood, and the blood was coming down through the cracks.
         And they were everywhere you looked.  And we knew that
everywhere we saw that that there was a body that had been
crushed between those floors.
         MR. TIGAR:  Your Honor, may we have a continuing
objection to evidence of -- with respect to resulting death?
         THE COURT:  You may, yes.

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
         MR. TIGAR:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  You may proceed.
         MR. SENGEL:  Thank you, your Honor.
Q.  As you were in the pit, did you find anyone who was alive
down there?
A.  As I was working down there, immediately this voice started
screaming, "Get me out of here.  Don't leave me here to die."
And I turned and I saw a body of -- later it was -- it was a
lady that was imprisoned in a wall.  She looked to be in a
sitting-type position, but all I could see was her back side.
I couldn't see her head.  I could barely see her back; and as I
reached through this rebar and this concrete, I touched her on
her back and I told her it was going to be okay.
         I told her that we were going to get her out, but
there was no way in the world that I could.  She kept screaming
to me and trying to talk to me, and I said, "Just bear with me.
We're going to get you out of this thing."
         And it was about the same time another lady started
screaming down below me, just a few feet below me, and all I
could see was her head above the water.  And she was in a well,
what looked like a well; and as her head was sticking up, she
kept screaming, "Don't let me drown."  A firefighter who had
come in grabbed her by the head and was holding her head above
the water in an attempt to keep her from drowning; and I don't

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
know how it happened, but the water stopped and crested just
about her chin; and finally, they were able to get her out.
         The lady that was in the wall, as I was talking to
her, there was absolutely nothing that I had that I could use
to get this lady out.
         I later learned that the young lady was Terry Shaw
that worked in the federal credit union; and fortunately,
five-and-a-half, six hours later she was managed to get out of
there alive.
Q.  When you saw Ms. Shaw down there, did you in fact have to
leave her because of a second bomb threat?
A.  Yes, I did.  What happened was while I was down there
working with her, working with the lady trying to keep her from
drowning, even another lady that we ran into was handed down
this hole that I told you about earlier that we were looking up
through.  One of the firefighters had this lady on a board
stretcher and handed her down to us in this pit to get her out.
         Again we had a chain of guys, of police officers and
firefighters that we'd lined up to try to get her out.  And as
I thought, "Finally, I'm going to be able to get somebody out
of here alive --" but as she was handed down to me, I looked at
her injuries, and she didn't really have any.  She was gray,
totally gray with the dust, but later even found out she was
         It was about that time when one of the fire chiefs

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
screamed down that everybody in this pit area to get out, said,
"We just found another bomb.  This bomb is bigger than the one
that blew this place up.  You've got to get out of the building
         As he said that, Ms. Shaw that was in the wall, this
lady down here that was drowning, there was another lady even
back further under another slab that you could just barely see
her, were all screaming and crying, "Don't leave us."
         I reached up and I touched Ms. Shaw on the back again
and I told her I'm sorry but I had to go; that I would be back.
But my partner grabbed me and said, "You've got to go," so we
Q.  Were you able to reenter the building later?
A.  It was about a half hour, 20 minutes to a half hour later
we got out of the building and we walked away from the building
and it was cleared to come back.  And I came back to the
building trying to find my way back to where I was at, but I
couldn't find my way back to it.  It was a puzzle to try to
find anything in that building.
Q.  But as you told us, you later learned Ms. Shaw was freed
from the wall?
A.  About five-and-a-half, six hours cutting her out with saws,
she finally got out.
Q.  When you reentered the building then after the second bomb
warning that you reentered, I take it, a different location?

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
A.  I did.  It was at that point I -- Sergeant Carson and I got
separated and I ran into my other partner, Sergeant Don Hull.
He and I walked up together to what I refer to as the plaza
area on the south side of the building.
Q.  What did you see as you entered the building from the
A.  When I first got on up to the plaza, it was at that point I
ran into my brother, Dennis Flowers, who is a trooper with the
highway patrol.  His S.W.A.T. team was there doing the rescue
efforts as well.  And as I ran into him, I remember we were
talking about this thing and trying to figure out what to do
when we both turned; and on the south sides of the building,
about two floors up, we saw a man that was setting -- looked to
be setting in some rubble and just looking out over the crowd.
         So we both started working our way to him.  But as we
got up to him, we could see that in fact that he wasn't just
sitting there looking over the crowd.  Half of his body was
gone, from just below his waist.  His legs were gone, and he
was dead.
         It was at that point that my brother, Dennis, went his
way and I turned to go my way; and Don and I started to work
our way over to the south side, and Don worked his way up to
the building.  And as he started to go in, I was held up by
some bomb technicians that were there because a slab on top of
the building started to slip and they thought it was going to

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
fall.  And as they held me up, Don turned -- didn't seem like 2
or 3 minutes he was in there -- and he came walking out
carrying a blanket with a small baby in this blanket.
         As he walked up, Don had this look on his face that
was incredible, a real stare, if you will, for lack of better
words.  But as I saw him walk out, I walked up to Don and asked
him if he was okay.  And we walked together over to where the
children's playground area was, and we opened up the blanket.
And it was a small boy, about six years old.  He was a little,
black boy that when we opened the blanket, I asked Don was he a
boy or girl; and he said, "I really don't know."  I first
looked at him and saw that he had a brown teddy bear on his
chest, on his shirt that he was wearing, but his head -- he had
been decapitated.  His head was gone from his chin to the back
of his head.
         A nurse came by.  She put a tag around the child's
foot.  Don picked him up, rewrapped him up in the blanket, laid
him over into the playground area where the children played.
Q.  Did you then go into the area where the day care was?
A.  I turned from Don at that point, and I ran back to the area
where he had just come out of and wound up on what looked to be
like the 2d floor.  I walked through.  There was a hole.  I
crawled in.  There were several officers and other folks in
there that were digging through this rubble.  I just picked an
area and I started digging.  As I started digging through these

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
cement blocks -- as best I can describe them, about half as big
as this counter is in front of me -- I uncovered a foot.  It
was a foot of a baby that had on a pink sock.
         I screamed out that I found one.  Everybody that was
around me that could even hear me jumped in this area, and we
all started moving this rubble.  It seemed like 2, 3 feet of
it.  As we moved it, there was a little, baby girl; and then
the best I can remember is she was wearing a pink dress.  And
as I pulled off about the last block of her, one of the police
officers standing beside me grabbed this baby and pulled her up
to his chest and walked out with her.
         It was in that area we kept digging, and I saw about
five children removed from this particular area, which later I
learned to be the day-care center.
Q.  Did you find any adults in the area of the day-care center?
A.  When I was digging in this area, we had worked our way back
even further into the area.  Sometime later in this one area,
there was -- what used to be one of the walls was now a mound
of rubble and dirt and cement blocks.  Still, you name it, it
was in there: furniture, baby toys.  It was a mound of it from
the ground seemed like two or three stories high.
         In that area, I was working around a lady that was a
white female that was twisted up in this mound of rebar and
steel.  Her body had been broken in half.  I remember that she
had beige shoes on and slacks, and her feet and her head were

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
laying side by side, as her body had been broken in half.
         We couldn't even move her out of there because she was
covered up with this steel rebar and these cement blocks that
weighed 5- and 600 pounds.
         In that area -- we attacked that area because we
thought there could have been somebody there.
         The best that we found in that area was just a jacket
of one of the law enforcement agencies that was in that
building; but at that point, I didn't find any other bodies
Q.  How long were you in the Murrah Building on April 19?
A.  Somewhere between 5 and 6 hours.
Q.  And when you left that day, did you head home?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  Did you find out whether you knew anyone who had died in
the Murrah Building?
A.  I knew that there was a lot of people there that I knew and
personal friends, but it was on the way home that I found that
there was a neighbor that I had lived beside for 19 years.  Her
name was Oleta Biddy, a dear friend of mine, as well as her
husband and her kids that lived right beside me, in the country
where I lived.
         As I found out that she was in there -- she worked in
Social Security -- I felt compelled to stop by and talk to her
husband, Henry, on the way home, who lived just down the road

                     Jerry Flowers - Direct
from me.
         I still had my stuff on.  I was filthy dirty.  I had
dust all over me.  I -- blood.  But nevertheless, I stopped to
talk to Henry.
         As I got out of the car, Henry and his son and family
came out and they met me, and Henry put his arms around me out
in the driveway and I apologized.  I told him I was sorry that
I couldn't find Oleta; that I did everything I could.  But I
told him, "Henry, I didn't even know she was there."
         He cried and he cried and he held me, and he told me
it was okay; and then I went home.
Q.  And you found out Oleta had died?
A.  Oleta was found the last day just before midnight.
         MR. SENGEL:  I have no further questions, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Do you have any questions?
         MR. TIGAR:  We have no questions, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  All right.  You may step down.  You're
         MR. MACKEY:  We'll call Mr. Roy Sells.
         THE COURT:  All right.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Roy Sells affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Roy Sells, S-E-L-L-S.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
         THE COURT:  Mr. Mackey.
         MR. MACKEY:  Thank you, your Honor.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q.  Mr. Sells, I'd like to spend a little time this morning
talking about you and about your wife, Lee.  Would you share
some information about yourself and your wife?
A.  Myself, I was born in Oklahoma City -- well, Oklahoma, in
the western part on a farm.
Q.  What was the name of the town you grew up?
A.  Granite.  It's right down in the southwestern part of the
Q.  How many children were in your family?
A.  I had eight brothers and sisters.
Q.  What did you and those brothers and sisters and family do
for a living?
A.  We done sharecropping with my dad.
Q.  You attended high school in Granite?
A.  Well, I attended high school in a consolidated country
school called Lake Creek, which is about 8 miles from Granite.
That is all consolidated now.
Q.  When did you graduate from high school?

                       Roy Sells - Direct
A.  1952.
Q.  And I hear that you graduated in the top six in your class?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Why is that?
A.  There was only six in the class.
Q.  After high school, you went off to the military shortly
thereafter, did you not?
A.  Shortly thereafter, about -- I was -- I worked in
construction for about, oh, six or eight months and then went
into the military.
Q.  And what branch did you serve in?
A.  Air Force.
Q.  How many years were you in the Air Force?
A.  Almost -- lacked about a month being nine years.
Q.  Did that assignment take you to the great state of
A.  I got to see a lot of Texas and Nebraska in those nine
years.  Eight years was spent in Nebraska.
Q.  And while you were serving in the Air Force in Nebraska,
did you meet a woman who later became your wife?
A.  Yes, I did.  In 19 and 57, early 1957, I met my wife.
Q.  Mr. Sells, let me show you an exhibit I've marked as
No. 1129B.
         MR. MACKEY:  Your Honor, we'd offer this photograph of
Lee Sells.

                       Roy Sells - Direct
         MR. TIGAR:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received, may be shown.
         THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  That's my beautiful wife.
Q.  Tell the jury, Mr. Sells, when you and Lee were first
A.  We were married in -- September 8, 1958, in Seward,
Q.  How many total years was Lee Sells your wife before she
A.  37 1/2 years.
Q.  In the course of that lengthy relationship, Mr. Sells,
what's the longest time that you had ever been away from her?
A.  32 days.
Q.  When was that?
A.  It was in 1970.  I had to go to Ogden, Utah, to go to
school for F4 aircraft.
Q.  Tell the jury where Lee Sells was born.
A.  Lee was born in Seward, Nebraska, in 1938.
Q.  After graduation from high school, where did she begin
A.  She got her job right out of high school and worked for the
University of Nebraska and was also going to school there.
Q.  Now, you're from Oklahoma, she's from Nebraska, and you're
living in Nebraska.  Do you pick some college sports to follow?

                       Roy Sells - Direct
A.  Every college sport that there is: football, basketball,
baseball.  Everything that you could imagine in college sports,
we went to.
Q.  When did you leave Nebraska?
A.  I got out of the service in 1962, and we moved to Oklahoma
City that year.
Q.  And until the time of her death on April 19, did you and
Lee reside in Oklahoma City?
A.  We resided -- except for the first probably six months that
we were there while our house was being built, we lived in a
duplex and moved into the house in '63 and have resided there
ever since.
Q.  Would you take just a moment, Mr. Sells, and tell the jury
how it was that you came to meet your wife.
A.  It was like an accidental blind date.  I guess that's the
way you would call it.  I had bummed a ride with a friend of
mine; and he was late picking up his date, and he asked me if
he could go by and pick up Mary Jo first, and I said sure.
         And at that time, when his girlfriend came out and was
introduced to me, she indicated that her roommate didn't have
nothing to do that evening, would I mind going on a double date
with them.
Q.  And that was the start of your relationship with Lee?
A.  Yes.  It was a little rocky start, but that was the start
of it.

                       Roy Sells - Direct
Q.  Tell the members of the jury, Mr. Sells, when you proposed
marriage to Lee Sells.
A.  I proposed marriage to her on February 14, 1958.
Q.  Did that happen to be Valentine's Day?
A.  It happened to be Valentine's Day.  It also happened to be
her birthday.
Q.  In the course of your marriage to Lee, Mr. Sells, did the
two of you have children?
A.  No, we didn't.
Q.  She was the only other person in your life?
A.  She was the only person in my life, yes.
Q.  When you moved back to Oklahoma in the early 60's,
Mr. Sells, tell the jury how you made your living.
A.  I had submitted applications to the FAA center and also to
Tinker Air Force Base, which is an overhaul depot for military
aircraft.  And that's -- was my love, the love of aircraft and
working on them.  That's what I wanted to do; and Tinker called
me first, and that's where I went to work.
Q.  How many total years did you devote yourself to maintenance
work on aircraft?
A.  Altogether, 34 years.
Q.  And in the early years of your marriage to Lee, what did
she do for a livelihood?
A.  She worked at the University of Nebraska until from '58,
from the time -- or really from the time that she got out of

                       Roy Sells - Direct
school until we moved to Oklahoma City in 1962.  And she went
to work for a plumbing supply company and worked there for not
quite a year and then went to work for an oil field supply
company, which she worked for for 21 years.
Q.  And after that oil company left Oklahoma City, did she take
work at the HUD office in downtown Oklahoma City?
A.  Yes, she did.  She worked for a few months for a dental
supply insurance company, which she was just going to work as a
temporary employee at first.  She didn't think she wanted
another job after she had left Republic; so she decided to do
temporary work.  And she worked there for a week, and they
hired her on permanent.  So she worked there for a few months
until she got a call from the HUD office, and then she went to
work there.
Q.  Was she working then for HUD at the time of her death?
A.  Yes, she was.
Q.  Mr. Sells, let's tell the jury a little bit about the other
part of Lee's life.  Was church important to her?
A.  You could -- when you first met her, you could tell that
God was first in her life.  Family was second.  She was very
dedicated to those roles.
Q.  You and Lee had been early members of a church in Oklahoma
City; is that correct?
A.  We had -- we had joined this church one week after its
establishment, so there was not very many members there.  And

                       Roy Sells - Direct
we weren't charter members, but we missed it by one week; but
we have been in that church ever since and held just about
every position that there was to hold in it since there wasn't
that many people there.
Q.  Tell the jury a few examples of how Lee contributed to the
life of that particular church.
A.  Well, she -- she started out as a Sunday school teacher.
We sing in the choir.  Of course, you have to realize that when
one of us volunteered for a position, they always had to take
two because we were there to help each other out.  If she was a
Sunday school teacher, I was there to help her out.  If I was
on a board of education, she was -- she was just another board
         So that's the way we worked it.  We sang in the choir
from the day that we joined the church until the day she was
killed.  So we were very -- we were youth counselors.  We --
she was president of the ladies' association, LWML, in that
church.  She was secretary.  We had been treasurers of the
church.  So we had virtually held probably almost every job in
that church except being a minister.
Q.  Mr. Sells, tell the jury a little bit about her career with
HUD, what assignments did she have and the work that she
performed for that agency.
A.  I think the first job that she held with the agency was
working in the Indian department, and she didn't work there

                       Roy Sells - Direct
long till they moved her up to the front office, to the
manager's office.  And she stayed there until about four years
ago, and she went into the legal office as a legal secretary.
Q.  And how many lawyers did Lee support as an Executive
Secretary for that division?
A.  There was three lawyers and a legal aide and herself, so
there was five of them in that office altogether.
Q.  And over time, did you get to meet each of those people
that she worked with day by day?
A.  I did get to meet all of them personally, one on one, and
got to know them really well.
         MR. MACKEY:  Your Honor, I'd like to offer into
evidence a photograph marked 2217.
         MR. TIGAR:  No objection, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  2217 is received, may be shown.
Q.  Mr. Sells, the members of the jury are now looking at the
same photograph that you can see below you.  I want you to take
just a moment, if you wouldn't mind, and introduce by name each
of the people that appear in that photograph.
A.  Okay.  Starting on the left, the tall black man was Lee's
boss.  His name was Clarence Wilson.
         And the lady standing next to him was Kimberly Clark.
She was the legal aide in the office.
         And the blond-headed lady standing next to her is

                       Roy Sells - Direct
Susan Ferrell.  She was a lawyer in that office.
         And the gentleman with the mustache and the red tie
was Mike Weaver.  He was a lawyer in the office.
         And then, of course, my wife.
Q.  Mr. Sells, tell the members of the jury how many of the
people shown in that photograph died on April 19.
A.  All of them.
Q.  Mr. Sells, do you remember where you were on the morning of
April 19 and when you last saw your wife?
A.  Yes.  I remember exactly.  The last I saw her, she left
about 6:30 to go to work.
Q.  What were the last words that you exchanged with your wife?
A.  She -- I was sitting in the big chair reading the paper
having a cup of coffee; and when her ride came, she come by,
give me a kiss, and she said, "See you this evening.  Hit 'em
straight today; have a good game."
Q.  All right. were you at 9:02 on April 19?
A.  At 9:02 I was sitting at the Old Orchard Restaurant having
breakfast with the people I was going to go play golf with.
That day, we had a 10:30 tee time at Surrey Hills.
Q.  Tell us how you came to know about the bombing that had
taken place in Oklahoma City.
A.  We were sitting there, and the waitress had just brought my
breakfast, set it down, filled my coffee cup up with coffee;
and I thought we had an earthquake.  In fact, I looked at Becky

                       Roy Sells - Direct
and said, "Becky, what was that?  An earthquake?"
         And she said, "No, this is Oklahoma.  It can't be an
         And about 5 minutes later, she come back by and she
said, "Do you know what the noise was?"
         And I said, "No, I don't."
         And she said, "Well, the Federal Courthouse blew up in
downtown Oklahoma City."
         I said, "You've got to be kidding."
         She said, "No, it's on TV in the office."
         So a friend of mine and myself got up and walked in
the office and looked; and just as we got there, there was a
news reporter helicopter that flew over and was showing the
picture of it.
         And I said, "No, no.  That's not the Federal
Courthouse.  That's the federal building, and Lee is in there."
Q.  What did you do when you understood that?
A.  Left the restaurant, headed downtown with Mr. McCraw
driving for me.  We went down there to see if I could help get
her out.
Q.  How close were you able to get to the building that
A.  We drove, probably, the car within about five or six blocks
of the building; and there was so much glass and debris on the
streets that we couldn't go any further.  So we got out and

                       Roy Sells - Direct
started running.
         And we got about probably a block and a half when the
police stopped us, told us we couldn't go any further; that we
couldn't go any further.
Q.  From the place where you were stopped, were you able to see
the 5th Street side of the building?
A.  No, I was not.
Q.  Did you have any idea at that point in time what had
happened to your wife?
A.  No, I had not.
Q.  What did you do after you were stopped?
A.  Well, I just -- probably like anyone else did, I tried to
go a different way to get to the building because I was
determined to go there; but the police still stopped us and
wouldn't let us go any further and told us the best thing to do
was to go someplace where my wife knew that she could get a
hold of me when she could get to a telephone.
Q.  And what did you do then?
A.  I turned around and went back home.
Q.  Mr. Sells, tell the members of the jury how long you waited
until you were notified that your wife had died in the bombing.
A.  I waited 10 days.  10 of the worst days of my life, I
Q.  Mr. Sells, could you in your own words tell this jury who
Lee Sells was and what was lost with her death.

                       Roy Sells - Direct
A.  Well, I think that they could see on the monitor here that
she was a beautiful lady; but her beauty came from inside, from
her heart.  She was absolutely the most loving, generous,

kind-hearted, thoughtful, loving -- the best friend I ever had.
         I don't think there is -- maybe her sister put it
better than maybe I could.  She -- her sister said she was
as -- probably as close to an angel as anyone would ever see
here on earth.  And I really and truly believe that.
Q.  Can you describe to the jury the impact of her death on
your life since April 19?
A.  Well, when they found her 10 days later, that's when my
life ended.  It only took a second to kill her; but me, it took
10 days to take my life away.  And my life has absolutely come
to a halt.  I've lived in a vacuum ever since.  I've not been
able to do anything, go anyplace except concentrate on what was
going on here in Denver.
Q.  Mr. Sells, today is not the first day that you've been in
this courtroom, is it?
A.  No, sir.
Q.  In fact, have you attended each of the public sessions in
both in trial and the trial of Timothy McVeigh?
A.  Yes, sir, I have.  Every day that the courtroom has been
Q.  Mr. Sells, would you tell this jury why?
A.  There is really two reasons why I was here.  One is that I

                       Roy Sells - Direct
made a promise to my wife's family and my family at her grave
site that I would follow this trial through and be like the
19th jury (sic) in this courtroom.  I wanted to see all of the
evidence, and I wanted to hear all the testimony and I wanted
to make up my mind whether I thought the people that did this
were guilty or not.
         The other reason is a question that hasn't been
answered; and that is why, why anyone would want to put a bomb
that close to a building where children, little babies,
infants, men and women, were working, armed with only pencil
and paper and typewriters and computers and would set that bomb
off and take their lives.
         That question hasn't been answered yet.
Q.  Will you carry that question, then, Mr. Sells, with you
outside this courtroom?
         MR. TIGAR:  Objection, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Sustained.
         MR. MACKEY:  I have no other questions, Mr. Sells.
Thank you for coming in this morning.
         THE COURT:  Do you have any questions, Mr. Tigar?
         MR. TIGAR:  Briefly.
Q.  Mr. Sells, we've met before.  I'm Michael Tigar.
A.  Yes, sir.

                       Roy Sells - Cross
Q.  We've met as you've come and gone during this trial, sir.
         I just -- I don't want to intrude on what you said,
but are you aware that there was a dispute for a time over
whether or not people who had lost folks in the bombing would
be able to attend this trial?
A.  I was here that day when that decision was made, sir.
Q.  And do you know what Mr. Nichols wrote to the Court of
Appeals about his view about whether people should be able to
attend the trial?
A.  Yes, I did.  I read that.
Q.  And you know that he -- it was his view that regardless of
what the rules might be about who could and couldn't that
everybody should be able to attend even if they were going to
be witnesses.  You read that?
A.  That was what was written in the paper, yes, sir.
Q.  And you have been -- you have attended the trial -- I
guess -- well, we've seen each other.  You've been here every
day.  Is that right, sir?
A.  Yes, sir.
         MR. TIGAR:  Thank you very much.  I have no further
questions.  Thank you, sir, for coming.
         THE COURT:  Mr. Sells, you may step down.  You're
         We'll take the noon recess now, members of the jury.
And again, of course, I must caution you to avoid discussion
about the case in any respect now.  And with respect to the
last witness here who testified that he had been present
here -- I think he said something like the 19th juror -- you
must, of course, not speculate on what that -- Mr. Sells thinks
about the case or about your verdict.  We're not going to
receive in evidence here or in the information, as we call it,
that is being presented the opinions or views or conclusions
about -- of people who are testifying here with respect to what
should be done in this case, what the jury should do or what
the jury has done.  I emphasize that again.  It's not a matter
for you to speculate on as to what Mr. Sells or anyone else may
think about the verdict that's been reached in this case.  The
verdict is in; and as has been said here by counsel, we accept
it and do not question it.
         Now, also, of course, during the time of this recess,
I just remind you -- the 12 of you have been deliberating in
the case -- that you're not deliberating during these recesses.
We're really back to where we were before; and although you
selected a foreperson to preside over your deliberations, that
person has no role to play now and will not until it is time
for you to deliberate again on the questions to be presented to
         So, you know, all 18 of you are here together now; and
in the course of the recesses, we -- one of the reasons to have
these recesses is so that you can have some relaxation and be
away from this courtroom for a while and have this matter rest.
And in addition to not discussing what you're hearing, of
course, we'll ask you again, as I did throughout the trial when
we were hearing evidence with respect to the events and the
charges:  You should keep open minds.  Wait till you've heard
it all.  You will hear a good deal, as you've already been told
in the opening statements, on both sides in the case; so please
wait.  And I'm sure you will.
         And also, of course, how the jurors may feel with
respect to this testimony, any emotional feelings that you
might have, you know you're going to have to separate that
ultimately, as I already had mentioned to you and will again.
And that's a part of what shouldn't be discussed as well:  How
did you feel about this witness?  How did you feel about what
was said?  That's really a part of what's being presented here,
and that's included in my caution that you should not discuss
your feelings in the case any more than your thinking about it.
         So, you know, it's contrary to human nature for me to
tell you these things and for you to do them.  But contrary to
human nature or not, it's what you are obliged to do under your
oath and meeting your responsibility to make the decisions that
you have to make.
         So we're going to be in recess now until 1:45.  You're
excused until then.
    (Jury out at 12:17 p.m.)
         THE COURT:  We'll be in recess, 1:45.
    (Recess at 12:18 p.m.)
                         *  *  *  *  *
Item                                                      Page
Preliminary Jury Instructions                  
    By Mr. Ryan                                
    By Mr. Tigar                               
    Laura Kennedy
         Direct Examination by Mr. Ryan        
    Jerry Flowers
         Direct Examination by Mr. Sengel      
    Roy Sells
         Direct Examination by Mr. Mackey      
         Cross-examination by Mr. Tigar        
                     PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS
Exhibit      Offered  Received  Refused  Reserved  Withdrawn
1129B         14943    14944
1477          14907    14907
1499          14930    14930
1503          14932    14932
2217          14949    14949
                         *  *  *  *  *
                    REPORTERS' CERTIFICATE
    We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.  Dated
at Denver, Colorado, this 29th day of December, 1997.
                                         Paul Zuckerman
                                        Bonnie Carpenter

"Transcripts may not be reproduced, re-printed or re-transmitted
 without permission from PubNETics or KWTV." 




Oklahoma City Bombing Cover-Up  

Oklahoma City Bombing

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