Why Waco?

(From APFN Investigative File)


There are NO Statutes of Limitations on the Crimes of Genocide!


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The 13 Illuminati Bloodlines

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The 13 Illuminati Bloodlines - Video 2:37:43



WACO ~ One of the Biggest "Federal Lies" of All Time

Rapoport-Hubble Report

FBI, David Koresch, "Defense Electronics" and Igor Smirnov

Waco & The Drug Mafia:


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Non-professional 90-minute audio tape tells story of the Republic of
Texas, added to this tape are cuts of information of Bill Clinton's
connection to the Illuminati. This information has never been released
because of the most certain death that will occur to those who are in
the know. This is a judge for yourself, real interviews with various
inside contacts that have told various parts of who pulled the trigger
on the Branch Davidian's and the connections. Shocking, to say the
least. In Bill Clinton's own words he thanks his friend of 25 years,
Bernard Rapoport of Waco, Texas. The reported illuminati controller
of Texas, if not the entire United States as revealed on tape.

See Video: http://www.apfn.org/movies/ClintonUT.WMV (Windows Media Video)

Without a doubt once you hear this information you will realize the
conspiracy that killed the people at Mount Carmel on April 19th 1993.
Many people have already been killed to cover up this information.
Including three National Guard
personal that drove the tanks during the siege.

The information is incorporated with information about the Republic of
Texas to hopefully make Texans, Americans and the world at large aware
of the shadow government and world controllers. The degree of the
power that is behind those linked to our government, our media is
unbelievable, except here is the proof for you to hear.

This tape is just the tip of the iceberg. Hopefully, funds raised by
this tape will keep the investigators alive long enough to bring
justice back to the people.

We are asking everyone who hears this tape, no matter how you got your
copy to send (above address) a minimum of $20 to finance the
investigators to bring wrongful death indictments on these conspirators.

In making copies of the tape, also make a copy of this letter.
Credits on tape: Rowdy Yates, Lou Epton, Carl Klang and many others....

The Dave Campbell Media Center was made possible by Campbell's long-time associate and tennis partner, Bernard Rapaport, a Waco philanthropist. Rapaport, a former UT Board of Regent, and his wife, Audre, donated $250,000 to the construction project. http://www.texasfootball.com/99front_0722.html


Planned Parenthood of Central Texas
P.O. Box 1518, Waco, Texas 76703
Audre Rappoport Women Health Center & Library
1927 Columbus Avenue

Without Justice, there is JUST US!

APFN WEB WHY WACO: http://www.apfn.org/apfn/apfncont.htm

Reply-To: fadaar@psn.net
From: "PRRG" fadaar@psn.net Add to Address Book
To: "APFN" apfn@apfn.org
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 02:38:35 -0700

Real-To: "PRRG" fadaar@psn.net

Not for commercial purposes - to be used for
education, discussion and research use only.
If you have any questions concerning this material,
please contact PRRG - fadaar@psn.net
The Fire Last Time

May 1998 Jacob Sullum

Waco: The Rules of Engagement, directed by William Gazecki, Fifth
Estate Productions, 136 minutes, $25.00

No More Wacos: What's Wrong with Federal Law Enforcement and How to
Fix It, by David B. Kopel and Paul H. Blackman, Amherst, N.Y.:
Prometheus Books, 524 pages, $26.95

During the 1995 congressional hearings on Waco, Rep. Tom Lantos
(D-Calif.) was mystified that "the lunatic fringe still clings to
the notion that there was a gigantic government conspiracy that
brought about this nightmare." He said "it is difficult to see how
any rational human being subscribes to such a notion." But as you
examine the details of what happened at Waco and what government
officials said about it, the tendency to see a conspiracy is not so
hard to understand.

The bald-faced lies highlighted in Waco: The Rules of Engagement,
William Gazecki's critically acclaimed documentary, leave you
shaking your head. The catalog of incompetence, arrogance,
ignorance, recklessness, dishonesty, and moral obtuseness in No
More Wacos, David B. Kopel and Paul Blackman's comprehensive
account of the disaster, is overwhelming. In many ways, it is
easier to believe that the whole thing was planned by a few evil
men at the top than to think that it unfolded haphazardly, without
rhyme or reason.

But the most troubling thing about Waco, the deadliest law
enforcement operation in U.S. history, is the absence of a grand
conspiracy. As Kopel and Blackman show, the investigation of the
Branch Davidians by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms,
the BATF's February 1993 raid on Mount Carmel, the 51-day FBI
siege, the April 19 assault that led to the final fire, the trial
of the survivors, and the subsequent explanations can all be
understood in terms of prevalent prejudices and familiar failings.
Hostility toward private gun ownership and unconventional religions
played an important role in the government's actions against the
Davidians and in the public's indifference to their fate. Another
conspicuous factor was the tendency for overconfident people to
screw up, dodge responsibility afterward, and rationalize their
behavior as justified by some greater good. As scary as it is to
contemplate, it's doubtful that anyone involved in this shameful
episode felt in his heart that he was doing wrong.

At the same time, to blame the deaths of 86 men, women, and
children (including four BATF agents) on a series of errors does
not do justice to the government's conduct at Waco, which rose at
least to the level of negligent homicide, or to the cowardly
cover-up that followed. And to blame the dead themselves is
audacious, since all would be alive today but for the government's
gratuitous use of force. Yet Sen. Joe Biden (D-Del.), who makes an
appearance toward the end of Waco: The Rules of Engagement, managed
to do both. "The record of the Waco incident documents mistakes,"
he said. "The record from Waco does not evidence, however, improper
motive or intent on the part of law enforcement. David Koresh and
the Davidians set fire to themselves and committed suicide. The
government did not do that."

Five years after Mount Carmel went up in flames, the view that the
Branch Davidians did it to themselves--which is also the position
taken by President Clinton and Attorney General Janet
Reno--remains quite popular. But as Rep. Lantos might say, it is
difficult to see how any rational human being subscribes to such a
notion. If you know an otherwise decent and reasonable person who
still believes the Davidians basically had it coming, show him
Waco: The Rules of Engagement, which had a limited theater run and
is now available from Amazon.com and Laissez Faire Books.

The documentary, which was nominated for an Academy Award, is
powerful enough to appall people who have followed the story
closely. Judging from the positive reviews in publications not
known for their pro-gun or pro-religious sympathies (The New
Republic, The New York Times, the Boston Globe), it has an even
stronger impact on people who have not given Waco much thought.
Director William Gazecki and his co-writers, Michael McNulty and
Dan Gifford, skillfully weave together excerpts from the
congressional hearings, press conferences, and negotiation tapes;
interviews with witnesses, experts, and local officials; and images
of Mount Carmel before, during, and after the siege. Their approach
is calm and matter-of-fact, but their juxtaposition of official
statements with reality is devastating.

Once you get your friend's attention with the movie, give him No
More Wacos, which meticulously documents and analyzes what went
wrong and suggests specific reforms to rein in federal law
enforcement. The book, which won last year's Szasz Award from the
Center for Independent Thought, relies exclusively on material
already in the public record. But Kopel, research director at the
Colorado-based Independence Institute, and Blackman, research
coordinator for the National Rifle Association's Institute for
Legislative Action, put it all together in one coherent narrative,
with appendices detailing the legal changes they recommend, laying
out the chronology, identifying the important figures, and
summarizing the negotiation tapes. Their thoroughness makes the
book a very useful reference.

The most startling revelation in Waco: The Rules of Engagement is
that government personnel apparently fired automatic weapons into
Mount Carmel during the FBI's assault, deterring the Davidians from
escaping the deathtrap their home had become. Two professional
analyses of infrared footage shot by a government plane during the
assault identified several instances of machine-gun fire coming
from the outside. As the movie reminds us, the FBI repeatedly
bragged that it did not fire a single round at Waco--an assertion
that was not challenged during the congressional hearings.

Kopel and Blackman complain, with justification, that the hearings
degenerated into a partisan battle, with Republicans trying to pin
the blame on Clinton appointees, even though the BATF investigation
began under the Bush administration and "almost everything that
went wrong at Waco...was the result of acts by career federal
employees." But Gazecki's film shows that the Republicans were not
the only ones who were willing to obscure the truth for the sake of
political advantage. Rep. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), for example,
clearly saw his job as denying that the government bore any
responsibility for what happened to the Davidians.

In one illustrative exchange, Schumer asked Dick DeGuerin, one of
Koresh's lawyers, if it was true that the Davidians were
stockpiling grenades. DeGuerin said the only grenades he had seen
at Mount Carmel were the ones BATF agents tossed in during their
raid. A startled Schumer insisted that the "flashbang" grenades
used by the BATF--which create a bright flash and a loud noise to
distract and disorient the enemy--are not really grenades. Later he
contemptuously dismissed DeGuerin's testimony: "Mr. DeGuerin said
flashbangers can kill, injure, maim. Anyone who knows anything
about these things knows they can't." But it was Schumer who didn't
know what he was talking about: As Rep. Bob Barr (R-Ga.) noted,
flashbangs are classified as "destructive devices" under federal
law, and in response to Barr's questioning a BATF agent conceded
that they can kill at close range.

Schumer's underlying message--that the BATF had acted with
restraint during the raid--is equally absurd. As Waco: The Rules of
Engagement shows, the agents fired wildly into the thin-walled
building, heedless of the women, children, and unarmed men within.
Wayne Martin, one of the Davidians, made a panicked 911 call during
the attack, trying to find someone who could stop the shooting. If
anyone held back during the raid, it was the Davidians, who knew
the BATF was coming and easily could have killed almost all of the
76 agents as they arrived at Mount Carmel in cattle trailers.

"Is there any way that somebody could believe that justifiable
homicide could be used as a defense here?" Schumer incredulously
asked during the hearings. Well, yes. Under common law, you are
entitled to resist excessive force by government agents, even when
they have a valid search warrant (and as Kopel and Blackman detail,
the warrant in this case, which alleged that Koresh and a few other
residents had illegally produced machine guns and hand grenades,
was marred by errors, false statements, stale information,
unreliable sources, and inflammatory charges of child abuse that
had nothing to do with the search). A jury rejected murder charges
against 11 surviving Davidians, apparently concluding that they had
acted in self-defense. The forewoman summed up the jury's view this
way: "The federal government was absolutely out of control there.
We spoke in the jury room about the fact that the wrong people were
on trial, that it should have been the ones that planned the raid
and orchestrated it and insisted on carrying out this plan."

Neither the book nor the movie answers the important question of
who fired first. That issue may never be resolved satisfactorily,
given the amount of evidence that has been destroyed or suppressed.
The missing evidence suggests some rather ham-handed efforts to
hide the truth, so obviously fishy that they actually count against
the idea of a sophisticated conspiracy. Waco: The Rules of
Engagement includes congressional testimony by a combat expert who
said the BATF's failure to anticipate that the raid might not go
off as expected amounted to an "`Oh, shit' contingency plan." Much
the same could be said of the cover-up.

The BATF initially claimed that an official videotape of the raid
would show the Davidians started the shootout; then it said the
tape was inexplicably blank. The bureau aborted its own
investigation of the raid when the Justice Department started
worrying that interviews with the agents who had been at the scene
would produce contradictory accounts or other material that could
be useful in defending the surviving Davidians--evidence that the
prosecution would be legally obliged to share. We know this because
a Treasury Department official explicitly said so in a memo.

And then there is the notorious steel door. The BATF claimed the
shootout started when the Davidians fired a fusillade through the
front door of Mount Carmel. But one of Koresh's lawyers, Jack
Zimmerman, said he had examined the door, and almost all of the
holes puckered inward. The door itself, which presumably could
resolve this dispute, survived the fire and promptly vanished.
During a recent debate with Kopel at NYU Law School, Ron Noble, who
oversaw the Treasury Department's report on Waco, seemed sincerely
exasperated by this little mystery: "Where's the door? I wish I
knew. It stinks of a cover-up."

The other major issue that remains unresolved is who started the
fire at the end of the FBI siege. Both the book and the movie note
that the blaze did not start until five or six hours after an FBI
bug in Mount Carmel recorded a conversation about spreading fuel,
usually taken to be evidence that the Davidians deliberately set
the fire. During this time, the FBI was knocking into the building
with tanks, which closed off escape routes and created vents that
made the fire spread more quickly. The tanks pumped in an aerosol
consisting of CS powder, a chemical warfare agent that causes
tearing, temporary blindness, nausea, and vomiting, and methylene
chloride, a toxic and volatile carrier that forms flammable
mixtures when exposed to the air. The FBI also shot the powder into
the building in cannisters. It later insisted that it did not fire
any incendiary rounds, but two were recovered from the site.
Whoever actually ignited the fire, the FBI clearly made it more

What the FBI admitted about its tactics may be just as horrifying
as what it denied. Waco: The Rules of Engagement shows a bureau
spokesman explaining that the idea behind filling Mount Carmel with
CS was to torture the children (who had no gas masks) until their
parents surrendered. "We thought that their instincts, their
motherly instincts, would take place and that they would want their
children out of that environment," he said. "It appears that they
don't care that much about their children, which is unfortunate."
According to experts cited in the book and quoted in the movie, the
CS powder probably incapacitated Davidians who otherwise might have
fled and may even have killed some of them. The powder can be fatal
in high doses, and it turns into cyanide when burned.

If Koresh did order the fire, then obviously he and his accomplices
bear much of the responsibility for the ensuing deaths. In any
case, he and several other Davidians died of gunshot wounds they
apparently inflicted on each other to avoid surrendering or dying
in the fire. But, as Kopel and Blackman note, "the government gave
David Koresh unnecessary help in his misguided quest for

In the movie, Clive Doyle, one of the surviving Davidians, asks a
good question: "If they thought that we were all brainwashed and
such a bunch of crazies, why would the FBI push David and the rest
of us to the limit?" The movie and the book document the FBI's many
gratuitous acts of provocation: shining bright lights and blaring
obnoxious sounds (including Nancy Sinatra singing "These Boots Are
Made for Walking") to prevent the Davidians from sleeping,
destroying cars and children's go-carts, mooning the women and
giving them the finger, deliberately and repeatedly running over a
Davidian's grave with a tank. Despite this harassment, note Kopel
and Blackman, the FBI negotiators tried to reassure the Davidians
that the government wanted a peaceful resolution, saying, "nobody's
going to run tanks through buildings that contain people" and "the
last thing that's going to happen is for the government to take any
kind of offensive action....You know, we don't hurt babies. You
know, we don't hurt women. We don't do those types of things."

And yet they did. In the documentary, Alan Stone, the Harvard
professor of psychiatry and law who reviewed the Justice
Department's report on Waco, tells an interviewer: "When I was
first asked to be involved as a member of the panel, I thought the
main problem was going to be understanding the psychology of the
people inside the compound. But as I got into it, I quickly became
aware that the psychology of the people outside the compound was
more important."

The men who confronted the Davidians were angry, tired, and
frustrated. They did not understand this weird "cult" and did not
care to. They saw the people who lived at Mount Carmel as mindless
drones under Koresh's control, when in fact the Davidians included
many intelligent, well-educated people, who were attracted by
Koresh's religious message rather than his personal charisma (of
which he had little). In Waco: The Rules of Engagement, the
surviving Davidians come across as rational and articulate,
especially in comparison to raving demagogues like Rep. Schumer. "I
liked them," says the local sheriff, Jack Harwell, who describes
the Davidians as "good people"--courteous, well-groomed,
unassuming. But the FBI did not want the public to sympathize with
the Davidians, so it kept the press at a distance and held back a
videotape shot inside Mount Carmel during the siege, which showed
not crazed cultists but apparently normal, decent folks with strong
religious beliefs. Had Americans seen the Davidians in this light,
surely their response to the government's actions would have been
outrage rather than applause.

Dehumanizing the enemy is a part of a military mind-set, and one of
Kopel and Blackman's main themes is the need to sharpen the
distinction between soldiers and peace officers. They recommend a
series of reforms aimed at demilitarizing federal law enforcement,
from getting rid of black, Ninja-style uniforms to eliminating
collaboration with the National Guard and Pentagon. They note that the police function has been militarized largely as a result of the
war on drugs--a fact reflected at Waco, where the BATF obtained
military training and support by falsely claiming that the
Davidians were manufacturing methamphetamine. The drug war has also been the excuse for Supreme Court decisions undermining Fourth Amendment rights, creating a legal environment conducive to poorly
justified, overreaching search and seizure operations like the
BATF's raid on the Davidians. Kopel and Blackman call upon Congress to roll back this erosion of civil liberties with legislation.

No More Wacos proposes many sensible reforms, including stricter
rules for obtaining warrants, remedies for victims of unreasonable
searches, training for federal agents in religious and
constitutional sensitivity, and a requirement for Cabinet-level
approval of large raids. But while these changes would help reduce
abuses of federal power, Kopel and Blackman recognize that the
ultimate solution is to reduce federal power itself. Given the way
things turned out, it's easy to forget that the chain of events
leading to the incineration of Mount Carmel was set in motion
because the BATF could not stand idly by knowing that some people in Texas might possess illegal machine guns. Yet even leaving aside the Second Amendment (which congressional investigators were eager to do), nothing in the Constitution authorizes the federal
government to forbid intrastate possession of particular firearms (or drugs, for that matter).

If the federal government exercised only those powers actually
granted by the Constitution, as the Framers intended, such matters
would be left to state and local authorities. And even if the
Davidians were suspected of violating a state gun law, it's hard to
imagine someone like Sheriff Harwell staging a massive raid to
obtain evidence of this victimless crime. If he wanted to serve a
warrant, he probably would have just knocked on the door. Since the Davidians had never threatened their neighbors, he might even have let the whole thing slide. "They had different beliefs than others," he says in Waco: The Rules of Engagement, "but basically, they were good people. I was around them quite a lot. They were always nice, mannerly. They minded their own business. They were never overbearing." The federal government could have taken a lesson from the Davidians.

Jacob Sullum is a senior editor of REASON.


Lon Houtchi was in sniper position #1

WHY WACO? - APFN WEB: http://www.apfn.org/apfn/whywaco.htm

From the files of: American Patriot Fax (Friends) Network


Attorney's representing law suites for the Branch Davidians:

CW: Joe Phillips welcome to the Carl Wigglesworth show,

JP: Thank you,

CW: Tell me what you are doing thumb nail version,

JP: We brought a civil law suite on behalf of survivors estates of deceased Davidians, relatives of deceased Davidians suing the United States and high ranking federal officials for excessive force, against the Davidians beginning Feb 28th of assault of 1993 by the ATF all the way through April 19th assault which lead to the fire and the death of most of the Davidians.

CW: And where does the case stand as of right now? How close are you to getting into a court room right now?

JP: Well! We initially filed our law suit here in Houston, where I am located the southern district of Texas. A Judge in the southern district transferred it to the Western District, Waco division. The only federal Judge in Waco is Judge Walter Smith who presided over the criminal trial against a handful of the Branch Davidians. We have filed a motion arguing that Judge Smith should step aside from this case. He has made statements that make it very clear that he has made up his mind about what happened.

He has made up his mind that the government did no wrong, that the Davidians were at fault. We have filed a motion that the case should be transferred out of Waco to San Antonio cause we don't think the climate in Waco is conducive of us getting a fair trail, getting a fair jury. That's one very important pending motion. The defendants have filed a motion to dismiss our case. These are also out there to be decided. Now the thing that we have been dealing with most recently is an attempt to get documents which we think are critical to help us with both of those motions. Regarding the motion that Judge Smith should step aside we have just recently learned in the last few months that the United States has at least one document which discusses in some way, we haven't seen it, but discusses in some way comments by Judge Smith about the Branch Davidian matter.

This document was produced under seal in another litigation called Risenhoover. This was a case where former and current ATF agents suited the media, claiming that they had alerted the Davidians that the ATF was coming on Feb. 28th, which caused the gun battle and these agents to be injured. The U.S. produced this document in writing under seal. Now we believe this document and perhaps others we do not know is something we should be entitled to see, because we have asked that the Judge step aside. This is a document that apparently discusses Judge Smiths commits or attitude about these matters. Indeed it was the basis for a motion to recrus in Risenhoover. The defendants in Risenhoover tried to get Judge Smith to recurs himself. What is peculiarly appalling about the way this is being handled is that the U.S. didn't tell us that they even had this document. Didn't tell Judge Smith in our case that there was this document.

We found out about it in-a-overtly just by looking at the document sheets in the Risenhoover case. Which is a list of events that was going on in the case. Their happen to be a motion to recrus. We did a little investigation and found out their was a document out there. We think that's part of what appears to be a cover-up by the U.S. going all the way back to the period during the siege, the siege where they moved and destroyed vehicles which the Texas Rangers wanted to stay in place so they could evaluate what happened on Feb. 28th. Leveling the sight 23 days after the April 19th fire before civil litigants could put an investigator on the seen. The U.S. has expunged the record of ATF agents Wanocke and Sarabin (sic) as part of their settlement with those people.

They lost the right front door of Mt. Carmel, which we think would of shown who shoot first on Feb. 28th. We recently came across a document which was an interview of Special Agent Charles Riely, FBI Special Agent, who states on April 19th he heard gun fire coming from the area of FBI sniper position #1 on April 19th. Now the FBI and the Justice Department have always maintained they never shoot at the Davidians on April 19th. The Davidians shooting at the FBI was totally unjustified. Well now we recently have come across this document which indicates that there was a shooting going on by the FBI. It is important to remember a few things about this, first that the FBI used the allegation that the Davidians were shooting at them to execrate their assault on April 19th.

To increase the penetration of the tanks and increase the insertion of gas. Now if it turns out that the FBI was shooting at the Davidians then perhaps that the Davidians shooting back was justified, their was the self defense, and their was not sufficient basis for execrating the assault. Another thing to remember is that sniper position #1, where Special Agent Riely said he heard this gun fire coming from was the sniper position where Lon Houtchi (sic) was located, now you may know that Lon Houtchi (CW: he was there too?), he was there, (CW: the killer from Ruby Ridge), he was there, he was the person that killed Vicky Weaver at Ruby Ridge. Lon Houtchi was in sniper position #1.

In fact Lon Houtchi was the FBI agent as far as we can tell, now again we have not conducted discovery we haven't been allowed to. As far as we can tell from the documents we have, Lon Houtchi was the FBI agent who, who claimed to have seen the Davidians shooting at the FBI and gave the compromise code which allowed the FBI to execrate the assault, so it becomes rather surprising from our perspective.

CW: Lon Houtchi, I remind everybody, from the Ruby Ridge trial, was the man, the sniper who killed, not only killed an unarmed woman, he said he enjoyed it. He enjoyed his work. So he's a great piece of work. We have killers on the street they are not being prosecuted or anyone even looking to prosecute them.

(( Station Break))

JP: OK thank you, what I want to do for a moment is to continue explaining why we have this concern of a cover-up. I listed the items that occurred in our case which we strongly think indicate a cover-up. I was getting into the overlap with Ruby Ridge, I mentioned that Lon Houtchi was present at both places. While also Michael Kaho (sic) who you may know was the former FBI agent, is the former FBI agent who has now pleaded guilty to obstructing justice by destroying one or more documents relating to Ruby Ridge in an effort to cover-up FBI mistakes at Ruby Ridge. Well Mr. Kaho also
prepared two briefing books for Janet Reno regarding what the FBI should do about the Branch Davidians at Mt. Carmel.

(CW: yes, certainly another trust worthily individual, yes.) In fact he prepared one briefing book just a week before the April 19th assault. Richard Rogers, who was head of the hostage rescue team (HRT), the mis-named Hostage Rescue Team of the FBI at Ruby Ridge was also head of the Hostage Rescue Team at Mt. Carmel. Larry Potts, who you may also recall was intimately involved with the decision making at Ruby Ridge and their has been some accusation that Mr. Potts changed the rules of engagement at Ruby Ridge to allow excessive force to be used, and allowed Mr. Houtchi to shoot Mrs. Weaver, even though she was unarmed. Mr. Potts was intimately involved with the decision making at Mt. Carmel, as well, we have some real concern that the same people who had either had destroyed documents, committed illegalities or had been alleged to have committed illegalities at Ruby Ridge were also intimately involved at Mt. Carmel.

So now we have learned that the U.S. has covered-up another price of evidence. This document which discusses in some way Judge Smiths commits or attitudes about the Branch Davidians. So for us its just a part of a chain of events. We filed a motion outlining basically about what I just said. Asking Judge Smith that forcing the United States to turn over this document to us and all other documents it has. Which may relate to Judge Smiths impartiality.

CW: Their is another real big problem with Judge Smith on this whole issue. In that is, that he over ruled the jury. All the jury members, including the jury Forman which we have had on this radio program and they were shocked by his ruling. This was not the will of the jury at all. So in affect, he though the jury system in the trash can and did what he wanted to do.

JP: Well as I have mentioned we have concerns about Judge Smith. We have filed a motion that he should not preside over this case. If for no other reason the appearance of due process requires we get a new judge, a judge that has not all ready stated his biases his conclusions about what happened.

CW: Is their any way of telling what the chances are of getting to court?

JP: Well, I think that depends rather we stay before Judge Smith or not. We think we have a good case. We think many mistakes were made by the United States. Excessive force was committed, constitutional violations occurred, we know that Treasury Department report itself criticized the ATF in the way it handled the Feb. 28th raid. We believe we have very strong claims here. But our concern here is if we can get a fair Judge. A Judge who is opened minded or we are not going to last very long in court.

CW: You really have a tough road because no matter where, rather Judge Smith or somebody, another Federal Judge, they are Federal Judges, they work for the Federal Government. Your charges are against Federal Criminals.

JP: Well! That is true, but not all Federal Judges have always been friends with the Federal Government. I think their have been Federal Judges that have stood up for the individual rights, for the Constitution. So I am not quiet that pessimistic.

CW: Well, I hope you are correct in this. Its been long over due coming. I guess we are still fairly far away from any resolution on this.

JP: It has been a long time. One of our clients has already died. Michael Schorders' father died. Michael Schorder was killed when he was trying to get back in Mt. Carmel to be with his family after he had heard about the assault. He died in a gun battle with ATF and his father who had a claim for Michael's death has already died. So. that means his claim is gone. So, we do have concerns about the length of time this is taking. But, we can't control that. we have to do the best we can under the judicial system.

CW: And the surviving Davidians that are being held in prison, are they a part of this or NO?

JP: We represent, Ruth Riddle which is in prison, she is the only one. Their is a companion law suit brought by Ramsey Clark, the former U.S. Attorney General. I believe he may represent one or two people who are in prison. Not all of them in prison are suing them with a civil law suit.

CW: So the former Attorney General of this county is suing the government on behalf of some of the surviving Branch Divisions.

JP: That is correct, he has a case, which has been consulted with our case, both before Judge Smith, we are basically the same case.

CW: And, the only one that can rule on rather Judge Smith can take himself out is Judge Smith?

JP: Yes! That's ironic isn't it?

CW: Oh Boy!

JP: The procedure is that he is to consider weather he should take himself off the case. If he decides he should stay then he is to consider rather we at least stated what is called a Primafacive (sic) case, which is a colorable case for his refusal and if he concludes then he is to refer that to another Judge to decide if he is to step down, so their is that possible intervention by another Judge. But Judge Smith, basically still remains the gate keeper.

CW: I thank you for being on today. Is there is anything that people can to do, that would like to help?

JP: What can people do that would like to help? I am looking at another colleague of mine, who is another lawyer that is working on the case, if he has any suggestions. They could talk with their congressmen. We were not very happy with the congressional hearings. We thought they were highly politicalzised. Not really a true investigation, some type of independent prosecutor, an independent commission, a true independent objective investigation.

I think people should call for that. This is the largest police operation in this countries history. It caused the death of more American persons then any other police operation in the history of this country. A true investigation, not so just the Branch Davidians and their relatives can have some satisfaction, so that in the future that this sort of thing won't be repeated.

CW: Joe, we are out of time, I thank you for being on the show today. We'll be in touch in the future. Good luck on the case.

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